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 Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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 Re: Communism / socialism  [Re: Alan Stone]
#3487400 - 12/12/04 06:09 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Stone said:
Quote:
any system that endeavors to control and direct the productive activities of the individuals in a society is totalitarian in its conception. without property rights no other rights are possible.
So you really believe the right to own land is fundamental to living freely? Sorry, that cracks me up. 
Do you accept the rest of his statement or does that crack you up as well? Does the belief that the right to own the fruits of ones labor is fundamental to living freely crack you up? Does the belief that the right to own ONESELF is fundamental to living freely crack you up? Just trying to gauge your beliefs.
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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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 Hendostan
Registered: 07/18/04
Posts: 4,444
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: zappaisgod]
#3487423 - 12/12/04 06:13 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
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Hendostan said:
the USSR under Stalin was GENOCIDE. and nothing less
I was not aware that that particular mass murderer targeted any specific race.
yes..well, not exactly a separate race but he specifically targeted a group of people..can't remember their name..it was a group comparable to the kurds in iraq. i'll find out and get you some links
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: Alan Stone]
#3487429 - 12/12/04 06:13 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Stone said:
Quote:
any system that endeavors to control and direct the productive activities of the individuals in a society is totalitarian in its conception. without property rights no other rights are possible.
So you really believe the right to own land is fundamental to living freely? Sorry, that cracks me up.
I don't see the word "land" mentioned anywhere in that quote.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: Hendostan]
#3487439 - 12/12/04 06:15 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hendostan said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Hendostan said:
the USSR under Stalin was GENOCIDE. and nothing less
I was not aware that that particular mass murderer targeted any specific race.
yes..well, not exactly a separate race but he specifically targeted a group of people..can't remember their name..it was a group comparable to the kurds in iraq. i'll find out and get you some links
I believe that group of people would be random Russian citizens sacrificed to tame his paranoid fears.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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overgrower
Proffesor
Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 27
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
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 Re: Communism / socialism [Re: silversoul7]
#3487702 - 12/12/04 07:28 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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They did not take away the PEOPLES land, they took away BIG BUSINESS land. there was no genocide in Russia whatsoever, the people that died died because they were still loyal to czars and tried to overthrow Lenin, or because of lets see...can you say WWII? if Russia wouldn't have been communist they would have sided with Germany, the only reason Russia fought Germany was because Hitler hatted communism and Russia hated Hitler for that. so do you still think we would have won WWII if we were fighting Germany, Russia, and japan? if you think that's even remotely possible then you have no idea about history. Chinese people died willingly to get the japanese out and overthrow the feudal system, before Mao the peasants were taken advantage of by the rich land owner. Mao took china out of a shit hole and made it into an actual country. The chinese wanted the Japs out so badly that in the beginning they fought with SPEARS against machine guns. 60 million people really? too bad that is a number you made up seeing how chinas poppulation during Maos reign was no where near 30 million...not to call you a liar or ignorant(wink wink) Now, how many Americans have died under our capitalist system? more than 36 million, o yea heres my way to back it up read this http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wars19c.htm
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overgrower
Proffesor
Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 27
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: overgrower]
#3487706 - 12/12/04 07:29 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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oh by the way, please dont comment unless you can tell me something that you didnt learn in highschool
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: overgrower]
#3487747 - 12/12/04 07:41 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
overgrower said:
They did not take away the PEOPLES land, they took away BIG BUSINESS land.
How is that just? Does one lose one's rights when they go into business?
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there was no genocide in Russia whatsoever, the people that died died because they were still loyal to czars and tried to overthrow Lenin, or because of lets see...can you say WWII?
Spoken like a true Stalinist minion. You, my friend, have much to learn.
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if Russia wouldn't have been communist they would have sided with Germany, the only reason Russia fought Germany was because Hitler hatted communism and Russia hated Hitler for that.
Of course, that didn't stop Hitler and Stalin from signing a non-aggression treaty at the beginning of the war.
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so do you still think we would have won WWII if we were fighting Germany, Russia, and japan?
No, but what does that have to do with communism?
Quote:
if you think that's even remotely possible then you have no idea about history.
pot. kettle. black.
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Chinese people died willingly to get the japanese out and overthrow the feudal system, before Mao the peasants were taken advantage of by the rich land owner. Mao took china out of a shit hole and made it into an actual country.
China was a great country long before Mao. European colonialism may have made it a shithole, but captitalism didn't. In fact, the Chinese have been moving towards a market economy ever since, and with good reason.
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The chinese wanted the Japs out so badly that in the beginning they fought with SPEARS against machine guns. 60 million people really? too bad that is a number you made up seeing how chinas poppulation during Maos reign was no where near 30 million...not to call you a liar or ignorant(wink wink)
No need to. You've demonstrated plenty of ignorance on your own.
Quote:
Now, how many Americans have died under our capitalist system? more than 36 million, o yea heres my way to back it up read this http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wars19c.htm
America has never been fully capitalist, and even if you count what we currently have as capitalism, your link has nothing to do with it.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: overgrower]
#3487752 - 12/12/04 07:43 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
overgrower said:
They did not take away the PEOPLES land, they took away BIG BUSINESS land.
And who owns big businesses?
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Anonymous
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: overgrower]
#3488062 - 12/12/04 08:51 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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They did not take away the PEOPLES land, they took away BIG BUSINESS land. there was no genocide in Russia whatsoever, the people that died died because they were still loyal to czars and tried to overthrow Lenin, or because of lets see...
soviet democide was widespread. they weren't just killing rebels and whatnot... they killed tens of millions of people for christ's sake. these people will killed in bloody purges, forced famines, ethnic genocide, etc. i know people that lived there. do you?
60 million people really? too bad that is a number you made up seeing how chinas poppulation during Maos reign was no where near 30 million...not to call you a liar or ignorant(wink wink)
from the site you just linked to:
People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40 000 000
* Agence France Press (25 Sept. 1999) citing at length from Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism:
o Rural purges, 1946-49: 2-5M deaths
o Urban purges, 1950-57: 1M
o Great Leap Forward: 20-43M
o Cultural Revolution: 2-7M
o Labor Camps: 20M
o Tibet: 0.6-1.2M
o TOTAL: 44.5 to 72M
Soviet Union, Stalin's regime (1924-53): 20 000 000
20 + 40 = 60
... but i see nothing on the website backing up your "36 million" claim.
Edited by mushmaster (12/12/04 09:04 PM)
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Anonymous
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: overgrower]
#3488141 - 12/12/04 09:01 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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THE IRAQIS DONT WANT US THEIR! we didn't find any nuclear missiles,even though we know N Korea and Iran has them..O wait and so do we..how does this make sense? Communism is the ultimate equality, it doesn't take YOUR land away, it takes big businesses land (Microsoft..etc) so the rich don't exploit the poor. All races and woman are completely equal, in America on average woman make $.75 a doll less than men.
maybe i'm wrong here... but it would seem likely to me that any person with a real grip on 20th century history and the theoretical aspects of state socialism would probably be able to spell, use proper grammar and punctuation, properly comprehend and cite statistical data, and know that iran does not currently have nuclear weapons...
listen kid... you don't have it all figured out. take your time and back off of the propaganda.
you running windows on that computer of yours?
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phi1618
old hand
Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: overgrower]
#3488192 - 12/12/04 09:10 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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You should take time to edit your posts, and carefully compile and source any statistics you cite. Your post is barely coherent.
America had McCarthyism; the Soviet Union had the Great Terror. America has the War on Drugs; the Soviet Union had political prisoners and the Gulag.  take your pick.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: phi1618]
#3488319 - 12/12/04 09:30 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Interesting that you brought up McCarthyism. I've recently come to realize that while McCarthyism was indeed a horrible thing, the basic allegation McCarthy was making was essentially correct: There were several organizations in America which had been infiltrated by the Communists. Of course, this shouldn't have mattered, since Communists have the same freedom of association under the First Amendment that anyone else has, but it's interesting to note that Mr. McCarthy wasn't just a paranoid looney--the Communists were there, and were quite active in many areas.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Hendostan
Registered: 07/18/04
Posts: 4,444
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: overgrower]
#3488541 - 12/12/04 10:13 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
overgrower said:
oh by the way, please dont comment unless you can tell me something that you didnt learn in highschool
this is the kind of crap that looses all credibility for you. if you feel the need to slam someone to make yourself feel like a bigger man, do it somewhere else. keep your personal comments to yourself.
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phi1618
old hand
Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: silversoul7]
#3488761 - 12/12/04 11:00 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:
Interesting that you brought up McCarthyism. I've recently come to realize that while McCarthyism was indeed a horrible thing, the basic allegation McCarthy was making was essentially correct: There were several organizations in America which had been infiltrated by the Communists. Of course, this shouldn't have mattered, since Communists have the same freedom of association under the First Amendment that anyone else has, but it's interesting to note that Mr. McCarthy wasn't just a paranoid looney--the Communists were there, and were quite active in many areas.
yup. I just brought it up to contrast it with the Great Terror. I know they occured at different times, but they were both essentially misguided attempts to insure loyalty to the state. Neither one was good. The difference is that while McCarthy damaged the national spirit and destroyed a few careers, Stalin wiped out several million of Russias best and brightest.
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youneedaclue
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 1
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: phi1618]
#3510824 - 12/16/04 08:11 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I am a communist, however I vehemently oppose Stalinism. The USSR was originally built on democratic principles(the members of politburo were elected from the individual soviets, called democratic centralism). The USSR was a degenerated worker's state because there was no democratic element. The motto for socialism is "from each according to his ability, to each according to his work", so if you work 10 hours you will get that much pay. Also, the only things owned by the people are the means of production-land, factories. Marxian theory hints toward worker self-management(a facet of anarchism). So there still was private property, your vcr was yours, yours and no one elses. Your business however would belong to the people.
I dont subscribe to one political doctrine too much because no doctrine is perfect. I also am a believer in anarcho-communism, no one who doesnt wish to be in the country, shouldnt. I am from India, I have seen what cultural imperialism, and capitalism have done to my country. Farmers commit suicide because the only way they can pay bills is through life insurance, children are forced to work in textile mills, there is child prostitution, and the government is imbrued in corruption scandals.
To sum up my beliefs:
democracy
free will
The USSR was fascism with a socialist mask. China is totalitarian Keynesian capitalism. The United States was possibly closer to socialism than the USSR.
Stalin did carry out a russification campaign and was about to attack the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee and execute them for supporting the state of Israel. Stalin was a power hungry ruler, he didnt help in the Revolution, and brutally suppressed his own people.
For true examples of communism see the EZLN/Zapatista Uprising. For a prototype of socialism see Venezuela/Hugo Chavez. The true spirit of communism was embodied within a short-lived government in Paris called the Paris Commune.
Even right now in Russia, there is a strong Communist following(over 40% of the popular vote). However excessive materialism and the belief that you can get something for nothing will be the end of any society(capitalism or socialism). I dont believe a socialist society can be created in the Western world because materialism is so pervasive in the west that forcing sharing on these people would result in a long bloody war. The West has already been lost.
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zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic
Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: overgrower]
#3512331 - 12/17/04 04:16 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I used to be a Khilafist (one who favors the rule of theocracy) up until recently when I joined the local Communist party after years of deep seated Far Left beliefs.
I strongly believe that governments must be secular to protect the rights of others. I also believe fiscal freedom should not be given to individuals at the expense of others. I believe it is a common myth embedded in the Western capitalist psyche that incentive does not exist in highly socialist societies. There is an incentive just to know you will be ok if anything happens to you, as a socialist society looks out for each other as a collective family.
There is no need for people to make excessive amounts of money while other people are barely making ends meet. Suffering must be eradicated even if it means bringing someone to an equal fiscal level.
Furthermore, I am a socialist because I believe money is the root of all evil.
Capitalism is a very evil, materialistic, and greedy ideology that will sell you the rope you want to hang yourself with.
If Jesus were alive today, he would be a socialist.
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zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic
Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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I agree with you on everything you said about the USSER.
The Soviet Union was an expansionist fascist state that only attempted to ride the coat tails of socialism.
Socialism is the most compassionate political ideology, and Stalin was in no way at all compassionate.
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Tao
Village Genius
Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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communism has two main faults:
1) it eliminates the incentive to work and manage efficiently
2) a central planning board is unable to calculate the supply and demand needs for the entire market, such a feat would be infeasible. the market on the other hand, self-propogates this information by leaving profit incentives for an entrepreneur wherever there is a void in supply/demand.
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Magash's Grain Tek + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs 
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zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic
Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: Tao]
#3512391 - 12/17/04 05:06 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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The incentive is in social security.
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Tao
Village Genius
Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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what do you mean? how does that get one to work or a bureaucrat to manage efficiently
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Magash's Grain Tek + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs
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