Home | Community | Message Board


World Seed Supply
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
Offlineyewhew
Dead in Eternity

Registered: 01/13/04
Posts: 153
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
The grand contradiction.. your solution?
    #3479719 - 12/11/04 01:43 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Let me pose the "grand contradiction" as I see it. (regarding existence)

There are 2 options and both lead to contradiction
A) Existence began. This leads to the problem of an infinitely regressing causal chain.
B) Existence did not begin. I know I exist at least as something which experiences. Since I experience now and existence did not begin, it follows that I experience now, I experience 5 minutes from now, 5 minutes prior to now etc etc. This means everything exists (at least as experience) all of the time. The contradiction here can be seen by attempting to answer the following question: Is this the 1st, 2nd, 100000th, infinite'th(?), undefined'th(?) time that I am experiencing this life? (understand that option B implies a predetermined/hard deterministic view)

I don't care for arguments such as "this is beyond the scope of human understanding, there is some greater force beyond us that operates beyond logic". This doesn't contribute anything here or anything anywhere.. it's like saying nothing at all.. so don't clutter this thread with that please.

What is your solution to the "grand contradiction"? i.e. do you have a theory that can solve this problem in any way, even if it seems abstract to grasp?


--------------------


Edited by yewhew (12/11/04 01:45 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: yewhew]
    #3479814 - 12/11/04 01:59 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You made the grand assumption...

I know I exist at least as something which experiences.

What if experiences exist, but not an I which experiences?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 11 months, 17 days
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: yewhew]
    #3479896 - 12/11/04 02:11 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

OK First "Existence did not begin. I know I exist at least as something which experiences. Since I experience now and existence did not begin, it follows that I experience now, I experience 5 minutes from now, 5 minutes prior to now etc etc."

Makes absolutely no sense at all. How does it follow? What you experience has no effect on whether existence began. Just saying it follows makes no sense.

OK, now, lets assume you are right and the two choices before us are the only ones we had.

I would do some basic ontology and point out that existence isn't the sort of thing to have a begining or an end, since these are features of things that exist (in time), and existence (in time) isn't the sort of thing that has the feature of existing at a particular value on the time continum, the same way that temperature isn't the sort of thing to be a particular value on the temperature continum, pressure isn't the sort of thing to have a particular value on the pressure continum, etc. So, yours isn't a contradiction but an ontological confusion caused by incorrectly putting existence in the ontological catagory where it makes sense to say things begin. When I talk about existence, asking if existence began is like asking someone talking about a new song what color there song is. Existence isn't the sort of thing that begins just like songs aren't the sort of things that have color.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 11 months, 17 days
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: tomk]
    #3479967 - 12/11/04 02:25 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Ohh another confusion you might have instead of ontological is the difference between.

"Is there a time something first instantiated the property of existence." and "Is there a begining of existence." But you asked the second one and it's the first one that makes sense.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinethe_phoenix
Stranger

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 541
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: tomk]
    #3479980 - 12/11/04 02:29 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The solution is understanding that nothing = everything. It is hard, but possible, for humans to grasp this. Obviously everything arises out of nothing, i.e. before something there is nothing. Thus everything has always existed, arising out of nothing.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineyewhew
Dead in Eternity

Registered: 01/13/04
Posts: 153
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: tomk]
    #3482204 - 12/11/04 05:19 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

tomk said:
OK, now, lets assume you are right and the two choices before us are the only ones we had.

I would do some basic ontology and point out that existence isn't the sort of thing to have a begining or an end, since these are features of things that exist (in time), and existence (in time) isn't the sort of thing that has the feature of existing at a particular value on the time continum, the same way that temperature isn't the sort of thing to be a particular value on the temperature continum, pressure isn't the sort of thing to have a particular value on the pressure continum, etc. So, yours isn't a contradiction but an ontological confusion caused by incorrectly putting existence in the ontological catagory where it makes sense to say things begin. When I talk about existence, asking if existence began is like asking someone talking about a new song what color there song is. Existence isn't the sort of thing that begins just like songs aren't the sort of things that have color.




What color is a song? A song has no color. Did existence begin? Existence has no beginning. Therefore you would have selected option B.

You cannot simply say "the question of beginning doesn't apply to existence". By that you are automatically assuming option B. Hypothetically I can regress back in time so whether existence began or not does make sense. You are saying there is something wrong with regressing back in time to begin with.. am I right?

Anyway let's have common ground here.. you say I should have said "instantiated".. well as long as we understand the main point here.

When I say option B implies everything must exist all of the time.. do you refute that? If so, why?


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineyewhew
Dead in Eternity

Registered: 01/13/04
Posts: 153
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: Nomad]
    #3482214 - 12/11/04 05:21 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Nomad said:
You made the grand assumption...

I know I exist at least as something which experiences.

What if experiences exist, but not an I which experiences?




What you said makes no sense at all. Experiences are experienced. Are you saying there is something logically wrong with the statement: Experiences are experienced?

Now, seriously...


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,866
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 4 months, 14 days
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: yewhew]
    #3482467 - 12/11/04 06:25 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

yewhew said:
Is this the 1st, 2nd, 100000th, infinite'th(?), undefined'th(?) time that I am experiencing this life? (understand that option B implies a predetermined/hard deterministic view)





yes. this is the 1st, 2nd, 100000th,..  time that One experience this life, it is happening. you experience this life, right Now, You was experiencing Now. if you cal this, living the 1st, for it to be, One would have a clear mind, saying you do not have in mind any existance prior to that you 1st had. still we would be long into the other expereince of this, and your 2nd experience of Now, and if i were to write on, we could have reached the 1000000th? 

so if your asking, is 'this'; really experiencing life? was it thought 'experiencing life' as if living a life as beeing born, school, freinds, pain, love, ect?

whit that asumed, pointing out that if Existence did not begin, it did neither end. just like it end and begin, might draw a grander image of this forsaken picture?  :confused: :thumbup: :heart:


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


Edited by Gomp (12/11/04 06:27 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineJacquesCousteau
Being.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 8 months, 10 days
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: yewhew]
    #3482497 - 12/11/04 06:36 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

C) I choose to openly acknowledge and accept the fact that I do not know how this all began.

Any more questions?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,866
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 4 months, 14 days
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3482526 - 12/11/04 06:44 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

""C) I choose to openly acknowledge and accept the fact that I do not know how this all began.""

How can one know, one do not know how this all began. whitout knowing it did?


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineyewhew
Dead in Eternity

Registered: 01/13/04
Posts: 153
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3483566 - 12/11/04 10:32 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

JacquesCousteau said:
C) I choose to openly acknowledge and accept the fact that I do not know how this all began.

Any more questions?




No one is claiming to have a definite answer. However, philosophy and the question of existence is a profound and interesting subject so I like to think about it. In my view, the fact that this contradiction exists just shows how profound and beyond our grasp the mechanics of existence really is.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinekadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 7,048
Loc: Asia
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3483865 - 12/11/04 11:19 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

the_phoenix said:
The solution is understanding that nothing = everything. It is hard, but possible, for humans to grasp this. Obviously everything arises out of nothing, i.e. before something there is nothing. Thus everything has always existed, arising out of nothing.




popular take, but not 100%.

how does one KNOW that everything came from nothing? thats jsut how "everything" in our experiences have worked out and make sense to us. maybe we got it backwards and in death we are really being born, and an all new is created.

cool subject but in my minds grasp i dotn see us ever "KNOWING" anything for certain. popular and logical theories will rule, only to be outdoen by the next.


--------------------
The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAreoZephin
Stranger

Registered: 12/11/04
Posts: 142
Loc: New Earth
Last seen: 12 years, 12 days
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: yewhew]
    #3484198 - 12/12/04 12:08 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

yewhew said:
Let me pose the "grand contradiction" as I see it. (regarding existence)
B) Existence did not begin. I know I exist at least as something which experiences. Since I experience now and existence did not begin, it follows that I experience now, I experience 5 minutes from now, 5 minutes prior to now etc etc. This means everything exists (at least as experience) all of the time. The contradiction here can be seen by attempting to answer the following question: Is this the 1st, 2nd, 100000th, infinite'th(?), undefined'th(?) time that I am experiencing this life? (understand that option B implies a predetermined/hard deterministic view)




We live in a timeline that's inside a timeline which is infinite and can't be folded into, which our timeline can be because the timeline in which we are inside, can't be. So we'd be living in the 21st century inside the infinite time which other times exist in and would have to be infinitely repetitive.

Either giving a constant rate of an average of the time continuously averaging several steps ahead because of several times, if one is inside an infinite time where if others existed it would fold and be ahead, which gives the next outcome of universal time in a reality which may disprove other parallel dimensional times.

I don't know, that's my guess.


--------------------
The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinekadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 7,048
Loc: Asia
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: AreoZephin]
    #3484243 - 12/12/04 12:19 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

maybe all of those times are inside of our own, mayeb each person is its own time line in which other timelines are housed. i really dont know or really strive to. btu this conversation is certainly interesting.


--------------------
The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAreoZephin
Stranger

Registered: 12/11/04
Posts: 142
Loc: New Earth
Last seen: 12 years, 12 days
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: kadakuda]
    #3484259 - 12/12/04 12:23 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Time could have always been an illussion and didn't exist until it was "created" by beings with enough knowledge to realize it.

Infinate time could be inside out time and outside of it. Infinate time can exist for our reality and outside our reality. Maybe time doesn't exist at all, and we are in a constant rate of no time but we have created our own.


--------------------
The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineHambo
Limey

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 497
Loc: UK
Last seen: 10 years, 18 days
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: AreoZephin]
    #3484277 - 12/12/04 12:26 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You only have shaky proof that you existed 5 minutes ago, memories tell you this, nothing more. All you're experience of everything comes from these memories. You make memories at the instant you exist, this is all that tells you that you exist - existance apparntly the process of making memories - hence 'you' don't exist five minutes from now, it hasn't 'happened' yet. And if memories are not real - ie. 'secondhand' existence you only know about because these supposed memories tell you so - you have no actual proof that you do actually exist. Not even to yourself.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinekadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 7,048
Loc: Asia
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: AreoZephin]
    #3484297 - 12/12/04 12:30 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

or maybe not enough intelegence to see that is is not.

i like the evolution take. we were tought in bio 11 that nothing come from nothing. but then they gon on further to say that life was created jsut liek that. i LOVE asking them to explain. bunch of absolutly clueless people trying to make sense. lol, good times.


--------------------
The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAreoZephin
Stranger

Registered: 12/11/04
Posts: 142
Loc: New Earth
Last seen: 12 years, 12 days
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: Hambo]
    #3484320 - 12/12/04 12:36 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Memories don't just tell you that. Physical conjuration can too. I throw my fist into a wall and one second later it's still there.

Really I should think of it like this about it:

I go to sleep, I wake up in the morning. How the hell do I know I didn't die and I wake up in an alternate reality of changed events that are past my knowing of everything I know? Ex of this:

In another country there could have been 309 deaths in 1 minute but when I died and woke up in another dimension there were only 3 that would have happened. Or my real life friend might have died that day and I was conceived with knowledge that he would have died today of cancer or a car accident.

Well... there are memories that I suppose would define your existence but wouldn't physical imprinting also?


--------------------
The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineHambo
Limey

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 497
Loc: UK
Last seen: 10 years, 18 days
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: AreoZephin]
    #3484364 - 12/12/04 12:49 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AreoZephin said:
Memories don't just tell you that. Physical conjuration can too. I throw my fist into a wall and one second later it's still there.





Yes, but then you only have a memory of making a hole in a wall, and the existance of such hole is only borne out by the memories YOU make regarding said hole from that point onwards. Its all in your head.. which, you only have memories (which may or may not exist) telling you that you even have a head anyway. You see?

Quote:


Really I should think of it like this about it:

I go to sleep, I wake up in the morning. How the hell do I know I didn't die and I wake up in an alternate reality of changed events that are past my knowing of everything I know? Ex of this:

In another country there could have been 309 deaths in 1 minute but when I died and woke up in another dimension there were only 3 that would have happened. Or my real life friend might have died that day and I was conceived with knowledge that he would have died today of cancer or a car accident.

Well... there are memories that I suppose would define your existence but wouldn't physical imprinting also?




This is exactly my point. You Don't know. You can't for certain know anything. Memories do not define existance, nothing does. They are merely a slideshow of things that might have happened IF you exist. From my standpoint, thats a big if.

Descartes said: I think, therefore I am. I say: Thats bullshit.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAreoZephin
Stranger

Registered: 12/11/04
Posts: 142
Loc: New Earth
Last seen: 12 years, 12 days
Re: The grand contradiction.. your solution? [Re: AreoZephin]
    #3484386 - 12/12/04 12:55 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

So then what if you video tape yourself and watch it for proof?


--------------------
The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Hey! Multidimensionals on Contradictions
( 1 2 all )
gettinjiggywithit 1,503 32 09/15/04 12:14 PM
by Gomp
* Moral Contradiction of the 'Abraham and the sacrafice of his son Isaac' story.-Genesis 22 OrizonsHorizon 1,666 15 03/08/06 10:27 AM
by fireworks_god
* why are there so many loopholes, blanks, and contradictions in logic?
( 1 2 3 all )
MrBuzin 4,394 40 02/20/07 03:49 PM
by shroomydan
* FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World....
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
PhanTomCat 4,894 105 03/23/05 06:10 AM
by Delusion_of_Self
* Solution to the Paradox of the Stone
( 1 2 all )
shroomydan 3,120 28 04/01/07 03:10 PM
by spiritualemerg
* Grand Illusion Positronius 908 13 12/03/03 11:25 PM
by Panoramix
* The universal myth (or memory...) of a "Great Flood"
( 1 2 all )
Adamist 1,375 21 07/11/03 03:53 AM
by Adamist
* Being dogmatic contradicts being intelligent.
implicitli
991 14 02/23/07 03:39 AM
by implicitli

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, DividedQuantum
1,628 topic views. 0 members, 3 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
World Seed Supply
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.106 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 16 queries.