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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisiblespudamore
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Big Bang
    #3477548 - 12/10/04 04:50 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Was the Big Bang the beginning or a beginning?


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Offlineld50negative1
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Re: Big Bang [Re: spudamore]
    #3477617 - 12/10/04 05:07 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Who knows? Maybe the universe was taking a cosmic shit?  :confused:


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Big Bang [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3477640 - 12/10/04 05:11 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

It could be THE beginning as well as one of MILLIONS of beginnings happening at the same time or happening one after the other.
I don't like thinking about that though, its too far out from our reason to be able to grasp any of it, so its useless thinking, IMO.


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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: Big Bang [Re: exclusive58]
    #3477650 - 12/10/04 05:13 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

certaintly


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Big Bang [Re: spudamore]
    #3477802 - 12/10/04 05:40 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

seems reasonable to think it was just 'a' beginning. that eventually everything would be sucked back into a gravitational center and create another big bang.

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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: Big Bang [Re: fresh313]
    #3477815 - 12/10/04 05:41 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

so something would have to exsist before the big bang in order to create an explosion?


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Big Bang [Re: fresh313]
    #3477845 - 12/10/04 05:45 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

It seems more likely that over hundreds of trillions of years, the universe will continue expanding at a faster and faster rate, all matter will decay, stars will form black holes, sucking all the decayed matter into them, and finally even the black holes will decay, leaving absolutely nothing in the universe

I think the Big Bang is a time of unification of quantum physics and general relativity- that is, like quantum physics, it was just a probability that the "universe" came into existence, and it did so in an infinite number of other universes, but each slightly different- all parallel universes, but say, if gravity was stronger in another universe, it may not be able to support life as the earth might be sucked into the sun, and there may not even be a sun. So it is a probability that we live in the only universe we can live in, and our universe, formed by the Big Bang was just one of many googleplexes of universes in this vast multiverse


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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: Big Bang [Re: Ravus]
    #3477863 - 12/10/04 05:47 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

then if so how can something be created out of nothing?


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Big Bang [Re: spudamore]
    #3477918 - 12/10/04 05:56 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

your right spud, for the big bang to happen it would need matter to send flying into space. so yes there would have to 'be' something before the big bang to create the matter. the big bang theory doesn't explain the creation of the matter.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Big Bang [Re: spudamore]
    #3478002 - 12/10/04 06:09 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

This is a common misperception, that occurs from general relativity. In our world, yes, nothing can be created or destroyed, only changed, but by reports, the Big Bang may have been smaller than an electron, subjecting it to the laws of Quantum Physics, in which case particles flit in and out of existence. They actually only have a probability of existing until they are directly observed, but then when they're directly observed you cannot see where they're going, only that they exist as a particle. Only when they are a wave can you see where they're going, but then they may not exist. A bit of a catch 22 eh?

On the quantum level, many weird things happen that would take books to explain, but among them, rips in the space-time fabric, particles having only a probability of existence until they are viewed, in which case the viewing changes them, and things seemingly being created out of nothing. Who knows, perhaps the quantum level, the things that are created out of nothing are just coming from parallel universes, but the explanation to it will be odder than the fact itself

It is said that during that Big Bang's expansion, space and time expanded with it. That is, there was no space or time around the Big Bang, only inside it. Impossible to comprehend, though this, ironically, made the biggest explosion of our universe completely silent, many scientists think

There are other odd facts about it if you wanted to go into it. For example, many also believe that there were a billion parts antimatter to a billion and one parts matter approximately, so during the first stages of the Big Bang, in under a second only 1/1000000000th of the universe remained


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Big Bang [Re: spudamore]
    #3478420 - 12/10/04 07:30 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

"The Big Bang" is not "The Beginning", and was actually never really MEANT to be.

The Big Bang theory describes the EARLIEST moments of the Universe in its current form. It does not lay any claim to what existed "before" time zero, but is instead supposed to explain how a Universe as large as ours came from what apparently was a single point of energy.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Big Bang [Re: trendal]
    #3478440 - 12/10/04 07:36 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Calling it the Big Bang was inaccurate...if the universe were collapsed to a singularity it would have existed in no space at all...so what would have transmitted the sound?


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Big Bang [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3478482 - 12/10/04 07:45 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

the big bang was A beginning. it was like an exhalation, which is inevitbaly followed by an inhalation (drawing in) before another exhalation (spreading out)

as above so below.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Big Bang [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3478501 - 12/10/04 07:49 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

The second law of thermodynamics seems to refute this if you take it at face value. Entropy.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Big Bang [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3478513 - 12/10/04 07:51 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Oh yeah...I forgot...If Albert Einstein were here I think he would agree with me.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Big Bang [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3478518 - 12/10/04 07:52 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

:lol:

That really is a good cop-out phrase, eh?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Big Bang [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3478521 - 12/10/04 07:53 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
the big bang was A beginning. it was like an exhalation, which is inevitbaly followed by an inhalation (drawing in) before another exhalation (spreading out)

as above so below.



This implies that the universe will collapse upon itself. This runs contrary to the current scientific consenus that the universe is constantly expanding.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Big Bang [Re: silversoul7]
    #3478554 - 12/10/04 07:58 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

...the end could be with lots of little cold rocks and low level xrays instead of a glorious explosion. Who said that there ever was anything before the big bang? The universe is finite. On that particular point I know Einstein would agree with me.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Big Bang [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3478598 - 12/10/04 08:07 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Who ever said that the universe was all there was? There is much much more than the universe, some scientists who study quantum physics think. The universe is like an atom in the universe, ironically enough, if some of their theories are true

Our theories always expand, from the earth to the solar system to the universe, soon I predict it will be an established fact of not only a universe, but a multiverse of trillions of universes

The end, assuming that the universe is going to keep increasing the rate at which it's expanding, which it is doing currently, is a lot more bleak than cold rock and x rays. In the end everything will die out, and perhaps the universe will be just as it was before the Big Bang- no space or time or matter or energy, with no terms or comprehension to describe its void


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Big Bang [Re: Ravus]
    #3478609 - 12/10/04 08:09 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

hmm can you have an INFINITELY LONG exhalation followed by an INFINITELY LONG inhalation?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Big Bang [Re: Ravus]
    #3478624 - 12/10/04 08:11 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

"There is much much more than the universe"

As far as we know there is not. There is no scientific proof or indication that anything else exists.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Offlinelilbil
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Re: Big Bang [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3478708 - 12/10/04 08:34 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

im pretty sure when u figure out that u become god or ur head explodes ethier one......lol....


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Big Bang [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3478837 - 12/10/04 08:58 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

"There is much much more than the universe"

Well, not really. The word 'universe' means the whole thing. Uni-verse is a verse about one, a word used to refer to the totality of reality.



Some one said the universe cannot be infinite. It seems every time we build a bigger telescope we see further out, no one can see the edge, so I don't think we can know for sure that the universe is finite.

Also it seems possible that there could be lots of big bangs happening alongside each other in space. The one which we call THE big bang could merely be the origin of the part of the universe we are capable of observing. It might be a hell of a lot bigger than this big bang, it may even be infinite.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Big Bang [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3478858 - 12/10/04 09:02 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Well, there really are only two theories, that there is only this universe, or that there are many. I argue for many universes, and the theory does support much evidence in the quantum mechanics field

Quote:

On the other hand, if one took a many-worlds version of this quantum cosmology
theory, one would have to weight the ?worlds? (classical universes) by something
like the number of observers within them. One would expect this number to be
proportional to the volume of space at the time and other conditions when observers
can exist (other factors being equal) [10]. Therefore, in the many-worlds version one
would multiply the quantum measure given above for the ?worlds? (the ?bare?
probability distribution for universe configurations [11]) by something like V to get
the measure for observations (the ?observational? probability distribution [11]).
The result, V exp [(4.5/m2)/(lnm3V +1.5 ln lnm3V )], is then suciently rapidly
rising with large m3V that the part with large m3V , even if cut o at m3V of
order exp (4.5/m2), dominates over the exponentially large peak near the minimum
value of m3V . There is thus enough space for the no-boundary proposal to be
6 consistent with our observations of a large and expanding universe [11], but this
argument implicitly assumed a many-worlds version of the no-boundary proposal. A
similar assumption had been made earlier in the broader context of eternal stochastic
inflation [10]. In a single-history version, it seems plausible that the Hartle-Hawking
?no-boundary? quantum state may collapse with nearly unit probability to a classical
universe configuration that only lasts of the order of the Compton wavelength of the
inflaton scalar field, presumably far too short to be consistent with our observations.

This suggestive evidence against a single-history quantum cosmology theory is
of course not yet conclusive, since we do not yet know what the quantum state of
the universe is. Indeed, the ?tunneling? wavefunction proposals of Vilenkin, Linde,
and others [12] predict that the ?bare? quantum measure for small universes is
exponentially suppressed, rather than enhanced as discussed above for the Hartle-
Hawking ?no-boundary? proposal. The ?tunneling? proposals would thus apparently
be consistent with our observations whether one used a many-worlds version or a
single-history version. But the possibility is open that increased theoretical understanding
of quantum cosmology may lead us to favor a quantum theory, such as
the ?no-boundary? one may turn out to be when it is better understood, that is
consistent with our observations only in its many-worlds version rather than in its
single-history version.
Another tentative piece of observational evidence in favor of many-worlds quantum
theory is a comparison with the calculation [13] of likely values of the cosmological
constant. If the assumptions of that paper are correct, and if the ?subuniverses?
used there are the ?worlds? used here (?terms in the state vector? [13]) rather than
different spacetime regions within one ?world? (?local bangs? [13]), then our observational
evidence of the cosmological constant is consistent with many-worlds
quantum theory but not with single-history quantum theory. However, we need a
better understanding of physics to know whether the assumptions are correct (such
as the assumption that ?the cosmological constant takes a variety of values in different
?subuniverses? ? [13]).
Therefore, it may turn out, when we better understand fundamental physics and
quantum cosmology, that the observational evidence of the expansion of the universe
and of the cosmological constant may lead us to favor many-world quantum theories
over single-history quantum theories.




http://xxx.lanl.gov/PS_cache/quant-ph/pdf/9904/9904004.pdf

If you are curious, I suggest you read the whole article, it's quite interesting and a good explanation of single world vs. many world theories

There is more evidence, but that enough is just simple indication for the "Many-Worlds" theory. The theory also explains why a photon can be in two places at once in the experiment where you shoot a single photon particle through two slits at the same time, why particles in the quantum world disappear and appear seemingly out of thin air, and so on. While we do not have solid proof of it yet, as it still is only in its theory form, there are indications of its truthfulness, and I believe one day it will be as commonly accepted that there are many universes as it is today that there are many galaxies


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Big Bang [Re: shroomydan]
    #3479189 - 12/10/04 10:11 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

The universe is curved. That means if you start out in any direction you will come back to the starting point. It is very much like being on the inside surface of a basketball. Is there anything outside this construction? It would not be relevant since anything "outside" (if possible) of our universe is irrelevant to the functioning of the universe. It is possible that beyond our "universe that there is nothing, not vacuum...but nonexistance. What is "possible" is irrelevant as it is unknowable. Speculating what might be outside of the universe is pointless because it is fruitless guesswork. I would like to se trendal's view on this subject since he seems knowledgeable about physics.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Big Bang [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3479397 - 12/10/04 10:46 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Actually, on a microscopic level, it's possible that it is more complex than that. Obviously if other universes had no bearing on us, they would just be in the realm of philosophy and be completely unprovable, and science would probably care less about whether they exist or not except as novelty fact. However, in the microscopic level, some theories rely on not only parallel universes, but that they kind of "overlap", not in a traditional sense, but in a sense that miniscule particles, like photons, that are governed by the laws of quantum physics, can flit between universes. This also may be the reason gravity is so weak compared to electromagnetism, the strong force and the weak force- some speculate gravitrons, being a bit like free floating particles, have a much higher rate of crossing into other universes than the particles of electromagnetism. This all goes back to the beginning of the thread- the Big Bang may have been a "particle" similar to this, of course much more unimaginably denser and heavier, that could have came from the laws of quantum physics' theories. It's possible the Big Bang came from a parallel universe

That'd be rather humorous if there was an advanced species in a parallel universe who learned how to use quantum physics for scientific purposes, and so sent an extremely dense particle to a blank universe (create a new universe the moment it landed in it) and that exploded instantly, creating the Big Bang and then the universe we know it today. The "Alien Experiment Theory" of Quantum Physics.  :strokebeard:


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Big Bang [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3479464 - 12/10/04 10:58 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)



If the basketball model is correct, then who's to say that there might not be more than one basketball separated from one another by a void. I suppose you could then say that there would be more than one universe, however when I say 'universe' I am referring to the some total of creation. The Uni-Verse refers to all actual worlds, even those existing in "parallel universes."


Why am I quibbling over the meaning of a word? Because the plural form of universe is an oxymoron. The word means, looking to the one.
All the actual worlds considered together fall under the concept represented by the word "universe". It is impossible to pluralize the word while still retaining its meaning.
...........

Secondly no one has ever observed of the edge of our little Basketball of space time. Until someone finds the edge, or sees all the way around the sphere of space/time, then the possibility remains that this particular space time bubble in which we live may be infinite.

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