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Invisiblevampirism
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"Unsubstantiated belief"
    #3475886 - 12/10/04 02:01 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

First, I want to say that there is no such thing as unsubstantiated belief outside of pure brainwashing.

How is something unsubstantiated if it simply doesn't have quantitative backing? As an example, I am very, very affected by new and full moons . As of yet, there is absolutely no scientific backing for this at all ( and there is backing as to the opposite... )- but I know it is true. When I am out of my mind falling to the depths of eternity and completely freaking out on a full/new moon, I am damn sure something is off.


What some people mean when they say "unsubstantiated" belief, they mean physically unsubstantiated. Beliefs exist in at least two forms- internal and external, where external is what you would call "fact." The internal is substantiated on an individual basis - on the basis of the individual's own Universe. The external, aka fact, is based on the union of everyone's Universe. ( note that there is no "backing" that the physical Universe exists outside of the mind. )

What really matters is the individual Universe- the differences. Why should you restrict yourself to what EVERYONE has? IMO that's quite boring. If you think *that* is what's beautiful about the Universe, I laugh at you. You'll probably laugh back at me, but whatever.

anyway this just turned into a rant so ill post it as is and hope i didnt fuck up


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "Unsubstantiated belief" [Re: vampirism]
    #3476123 - 12/10/04 02:53 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

How is something unsubstantiated if it simply doesn't have quantitative backing? As an example, I am very, very affected by new and full moons . As of yet, there is absolutely no scientific backing for this at all ( and there is backing as to the opposite... )- but I know it is true. When I am out of my mind falling to the depths of eternity and completely freaking out on a full/new moon, I am damn sure something is off.
It is more like, "I affect myself in a certain way when I see a new/full moon." It is not the moon itself.

As of yet, there is absolutely no scientific backing for this at all ( and there is backing as to the opposite... )- but I know it is true.
Other people "knew it was true" that more accidents or crime happened during this time. "Close-minded" scientists and statisticians checked into this presumption and found it completey lacking.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: "Unsubstantiated belief" [Re: Swami]
    #3476206 - 12/10/04 03:04 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

t is more like, "I affect myself in a certain way when I see a new/full moon." It is not the moon itself.




Incorrect. I can tell the phase of the moon ( especially in the summer). I am horribly chained to the moon and can't escape it. I thought maybe it was a mind thing. I taught myself to ignore it for long times and blame any severe emotional distress as *just* that. But no! I began to look up the current moon phase - every single time it was either full or new ( i didn't do this periodically, it was fairly random- every few months or whatever ). I should note there's a different feeling .. new moons are sort of.. distress to satisfaction, and full moons the opposite? No.. blah hard to explain.



Quote:


Other people "knew it was true" that more accidents or crime happened during this time. "Close-minded" scientists and statisticians checked into this presumption and found it completey lacking.




Perhaps the moon had an equal but opposite effect on the saem number of people that were brought out to commit crimes? It is clear that the moon does not have the same effect on everyone- and this technicality makes statistics completely useless.


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OfflineMrBump
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Re: "Unsubstantiated belief" [Re: vampirism]
    #3477185 - 12/10/04 05:52 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)






Incorrect. I can tell the phase of the moon ( especially in the summer). I am horribly chained to the moon and can't escape it. I thought maybe it was a mind thing. I taught myself to ignore it for long times and blame any severe emotional distress as *just* that. But no! I began to look up the current moon phase - every single time it was either full or new ( i didn't do this periodically, it was fairly random- every few months or whatever ). I should note there's a different feeling .. new moons are sort of.. distress to satisfaction, and full moons the opposite? No.. blah hard to explain.





it sounds to me like you did quantify enough in data to prove to yourself that the cycles of the moon.
but how is science going to help you figure out why the moon effects you?


--------------------
If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all.

There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn.

Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: "Unsubstantiated belief" [Re: MrBump]
    #3478459 - 12/10/04 09:41 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

whats the differance between a volkswagon and a pile of dead babies?

i dont have a volswagon in my garage.


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Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: "Unsubstantiated belief" [Re: MrBump]
    #3478528 - 12/10/04 09:53 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Well not really. I stayed qualitatitive - which is not science. The comparison part of science is quantitative. I'm somewhere between taking it on faith and only using science to analyze it. I'm not inclined to believe that any use of rational thought is science.

and as to
Quote:

but how is science going to help you figure out why the moon effects you?



It won't, basically.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: "Unsubstantiated belief" [Re: vampirism]
    #3479322 - 12/11/04 12:32 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Incorrect. I can tell the phase of the moon ( especially in the summer).

I can too. It's uncanny. I look up and voila, I know the phase.

Seriously, maybe you have this ability, maybe not. But, let me ask you this. Let's say the sun suddenly went dark but was otherwise unaffected such that the moon would no longer be visible at all. It would still be there orbiting as it always has, only no longer visible.

Do you think you would still be affected?

If you think you would still be affected, can you give a plausible mechanism by which this would work?


--------------------
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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: "Unsubstantiated belief" [Re: Diploid]
    #3479586 - 12/11/04 01:19 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


If you think you would still be affected, can you give a plausible mechanism by which this would work?



Consider that this works especially around full and new moons- new moons are not visible. There were times that I spent 0% of my time at night outdoors- meaning that I had ONLY "intuition" to rely on - so i know it is accurate at least.

I cannot give a plausible mechanism, and in fact am quite dumbfounded and annoyed by it- but i still accept it however much I'd rather not. I spent alot of time trying to figure out what the hell was wrong with me in this respect, but found nothing useful anywhere.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: "Unsubstantiated belief" [Re: vampirism]
    #3479893 - 12/11/04 02:10 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Consider that this works especially around full and new moons- new moons are not visible.

But the non-visible new moon is itself as strong a queue as the full moon, and you're always at least roughly aware of the date, and even if you don't look at the sky, looking out a window at night during a full moon shows a much brighter landscape than during new moon.

Have you ever considered that the effect might be a placebo?

The Circadian Rhythm (CR) is the body's internal 'clock'. During each cycle of the Circadian Rhythm, the body's temperature, brainwave activity, blood pressure, and a slew of other parameters varies in a regular pattern with a period of approximately 24 hours.

Studies done to objectively measure and characterize the natural, uninfluenced CR in the absence of visual queues like sunlight have not found any evidence of the effect you're describing.

In these studies, people are placed in specially constructed caves where they have no contact with the outside world at all other than through closed circuit video and sound with the researchers.

The test subjects wear arrays of instruments that monitor their heart rate, blood pressure, temperature, all that. They are allowed to eat, sleep, talk, or whatever they want whenever they want. Even after months in these environments, no evidence of any coupling with the phases of the moon has ever been discovered.

Even if not everyone has this ability, enough people have been studies in these experiments in the last few decades that if the ability were real in even a small fraction of the population, it would have been detected by now.

Maybe you're kidding yourself?  :syringe:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineNomad
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Re: "Unsubstantiated belief" [Re: Diploid]
    #3480804 - 12/11/04 08:22 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Diploid, could you please point out any mechanism by which he would be kidding himself? He didn't see the moon because he spent the nights indoors, yet he was able to predict the moon phase. How can this be a placebo?

Or, if you think he's a liar, why not just say so?


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OfflineNomad
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Re: "Unsubstantiated belief" [Re: Nomad]
    #3480814 - 12/11/04 08:26 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Ok, I'll take that back. You did propose a mechanism. I'm stupid.

I'll go to sleep now.


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OfflineNomad
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Re: "Unsubstantiated belief" [Re: Nomad]
    #3480924 - 12/11/04 09:34 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Let's see. To claim that the sensitivity to the moon phase originates in the fact that we are "always at least roughly aware of the date" seems to be invalid, in my opinion, because you could use that to reject the result of every possible experimental constellation which proves such a sensitivity. I will grant you that it is possible that he accidently looked out of the window, and his subconscious (or whatever) recognized the moon phase. However, some nights are clouded, others not. At least it is clear that a short glance out of a window doesn't enable you to consciously tell the moon phase. Also, let's not forget that the amount of light reflected on the landscape could, in fact, be the miraculous mechanism by which the moon phase influences the mind. This would nicely explain the negative results of your cave experiments. It would still be correct to say that there is a sensitivity to the moon phases, in the same way in which it is correct to say that the sun causes sunburns, when, in fact, sunburns are caused by rays emitted from the sun. After all, there must be some mechanism by which the moon phase influences the brain, provided it does so.

But the more sophisticated possibility is that most of the people are simply shielded off from such influences through what U.G. Krishnamurti calls the "thought armor", the self-perpetuating ego structure superimposed on the body. He, by the way, also claims a sensitivity to the moon phases. In that case, one would expect the effect to be as rare among the general public as psychic abilities. The latter also have never been proven in an experimental setting, yet it has been shown at Stanford that consciousness is able to influence matter, albeit in an incredibly slight way. The statistical significance, however, is there, and the results and the experimental settings are as rigid as they can be. One would expect, then, that to prove a sensitivity to moon phases, one would have to use an equally sophisticated experimental setting, and look for results with only statistical significance. The possibility of a single individual exhibiting a higher sensitivity remains untouched.

In any case, cutting it down with Ockham's razor, it seems clear to me that attributing Morrowind's experience to a placebo effect requires a more complex and more incredible hypothesis about the brain's autosuggestive abilities, than to simply accept that there's a guy who, by whatever mechanism, is sensible to the moon phase. That should be so even if we take into account that placebo effects have been proven in many ways.

That someone looks out of a window accidentally, recognizes the moon phase subconsciously, and then freaks out involuntarily, seems a little far-fetched.

Personal experience over science, anytime - provided you test it out. Everything else is seriously bad style, man.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: "Unsubstantiated belief" [Re: Diploid]
    #3481150 - 12/11/04 12:06 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

well, the intense effects are not within a 24 hour period- the 1-2 days around the moon are susceptible to them, but other days are slightly progress in both terms of intensity and type of feeling. ( rough translaiot- I really cant word the actual effect ... i think id have to coin some new terms or something )

The intensest part of the.. moodswing generally only lasts a couple of hours. I just don't see how circadian rhythm would agree with "with a period of approximately 24 hours." There is always some change, but around new and full moons it's almost asymptotic, if you were to graph it vs time... ( i don't know what "it" is, i can't quantify it nor will i try to. ) I should note that I am not aware of the moon during the time of the year that the swings are basically ignored by my body. I will think ( umm 3 weeks to a full moon? ) and then get surprised a few days later when i start freaking out, and check that *today* was a full moon, and get confused.

If I were to make an attempt to quantify the effect, then i'd split the moon into dark and light- the period where one goes to 0 would have some horrible effects because of division by 0 or something, but the whole thing would need an offset, because it does not always link up to-the-second with the moon phase.


and honestly, I wish I was kidding myself. Unless my subconscious is God and is playing a horrible joke on me, I am not kidding myself. One of those cave experiments might sound interesting, but I don't think I want to spend months in a dark cave.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: [Re: vampirism]
    #3481305 - 12/11/04 01:09 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

""Unsubstantiated belief""

to believe, you believe you believe? :P


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "Unsubstantiated belief" [Re: vampirism]
    #3481892 - 12/11/04 03:57 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

First, I want to say that there is no such thing as unsubstantiated belief outside of pure brainwashing.

If one believes in an after-life without having a single experience to indicate its possibility, would you call them brainwashed? Yes or no.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: "Unsubstantiated belief" [Re: Swami]
    #3482546 - 12/11/04 06:50 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

without having a single experience to indicate its possibility

then yes.

however, you should consider that experiences are very open to interpretation. Admittedly though, I can see how dogma could purely brainwash someone into believing in afterlife.


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Offlineoceansize
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Re: "Unsubstantiated belief" [Re: vampirism]
    #3506069 - 12/15/04 10:13 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Morrow do you think there are other people who believe something along the lines of your moon sensitivity just as much as you do, yet they were later proved wrong, even to themselves?


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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