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spud
I'm so fly.
Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: Rose]
#4186802 - 05/17/05 01:26 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Something else you might find interesting:
Quote:
In a double blind study of Emoto's claims, designed to enhance credibility by reducing the potential for bias, experimenters would photograph and record snowflakes formed from different water samples before learning which samples had been sent which messages. Without double blinding, the photographers are free to hunt through the diversity of snowflakes in each sample to look for snowflakes that match their expectations of what the snowflake should look like, because they already know which message was attached to which container. Indeed, the creativity of photographers rather than the rigour of the experiment is the explicit policy of Emoto:
Extract from a February 2, 2005 interview of Emoto by Maui Newspaper
Interviewer: Any criticism about your work that I have read suggests it's not valid because there are no double blind studies. What is your response?
Emoto: When I consider hiring a new researcher to take crystal photography, I first give that person a blind test on water crystals. For example, I will provide some samples of water that we know will definitely form crystals, and some samples that will not produce any (such as Tokyo's tap water) without telling the candidate. Depending on the test result, I will register that person according to his or her level. However, I do not require any blind test on any samples after that. I believe that the researcher's aesthetic sense and character is the important aspect when taking crystal photographs. Therefore, I try to make sure that they can take photographs in a relaxed and positive atmosphere. I urge each one of them to try their best because beauty exists in everything.
This reveals that Emoto uses blind tests to screen the photo-taking skills of his photographers, but not in the actual experiments, leaving the potential for selection bias. The James Randi Educational Foundation has offered to give Emoto 1 million U.S. dollars if he can demonstrate his claims with a double blind procedure. Emoto has not responded to the offer.
Emoto's photographs are featured in the 2004 film What the #$*! Do We Know!? , directed by followers of Ramtha. This film creates the misleading impression that the water crystals (snowflakes) presented were created by mental effort, whereas the procedure as described on Emoto's web sites involves freezing the water.
I recommend not doing selective research when checking the credibility of a claim as absurd as his.
It's difficult to debunk a claim when they refuse to do it using a double blind experiment. You can't debunk him if he avoids confrontation, he wont repeat the experiment in a scientific way out of fear of exposing his quackery.
Read the section discussing Emoto:
http://www.randi.org/jr/052303.html
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: spud]
#4187406 - 05/17/05 03:31 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
spud said: You like to believe everyone doesn't read what you wrote if it doesn't align with what you want to hear. T
You just presented a bunch of EMOTO's words, and a link, to argue your "Point".
Don't tell ME what I want to hear. I told you what I WANT to hear. You just didn't read it.
You are still treating me like a believer.
However, most scientists would agree...
Your evidence has less validity than Emoto's journal... or your evidence would be peer approved ... just like Emoto's.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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spud
I'm so fly.
Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: Rose]
#4187436 - 05/17/05 03:38 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Did you even read the post directly above the one you just made?
He refused to do a double blind test. He had hundreds of images of crystals to pick from, he just picked the ones that would align with his theory. If you find that still creditable, well good for you.
I guess it just reflects your own intellect.
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Rose
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Posts: 22,518
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: spud]
#4187818 - 05/17/05 05:02 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Is your link a peer approved, published medical Photo essay?
It looks like someone, like you just posted something on the net.
All I said, Oh illiterate one, is there has yet to be a DEBUNKEE to prove Emoto wrong, in a Scientific, PEER APPROVED setting.
So far, I only see EMOTO published in SCIENTIFIC and MEDICAL journals... published only as a theory, yes... but PUBLISHED, and R E V I E W E D. Your guy just pokes holes in his theory. But, NOBODY Published those claims.
I'm sure if anyone disproved EMOTO, it would be PUBLISHED in a JOURNAL of PEERS (who can CALL BULLSHIT!). That is how the science world works.
There is a difference between just posting something on the net, and having it reviewed and approved for a MEDICAL JOURNAL.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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spud
I'm so fly.
Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: Rose]
#4187832 - 05/17/05 05:06 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said: Is your link a peer approved, published medical Photo essay?
Yes, it is. WIKI peer reviews their articles.
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spud
I'm so fly.
Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: Rose]
#4187839 - 05/17/05 05:07 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said:
So far, I only see EMOTO published in SCIENTIFIC and MEDICAL journals... published only as a theory, yes... but PUBLISHED, and R E V I E W E D. Your guy just pokes holes in his theory. But, NOBODY Published those claims. .
I already asked once, I'll ask again. Can you provide me with some of these journals you speak of?
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: spud]
#4187850 - 05/17/05 05:10 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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OK, a WIKI (which ANYONE CAN CHANGE) approved your article... that's not a panel of Emoto's peers.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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spud
I'm so fly.
Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: spud]
#4187855 - 05/17/05 05:11 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
spud said:
Quote:
Cervantes said:
So far, I only see EMOTO published in SCIENTIFIC and MEDICAL journals... published only as a theory, yes... but PUBLISHED, and R E V I E W E D. Your guy just pokes holes in his theory. But, NOBODY Published those claims. .
I already asked once, I'll ask again. Can you provide me with some of these journals you speak of?
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spud
I'm so fly.
Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: Rose]
#4187860 - 05/17/05 05:13 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Uh, peer-reviewed journal, by definition, wouldn't including Emoto's peers. It can be anyone that reviews it as long as they aren't the publisher themselves.
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spud
I'm so fly.
Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: Rose]
#4187880 - 05/17/05 05:19 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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You seem to be extremely confused. The criticism of an experiment isn't supposed to be peer reviewed/medical journal. You can't even get criticism into a medical journal. The experiment itself is supposed to be peer reviewed, not the criticism.
Oh, btw, so far you've provided 0 peer reviewed/medical journals you speak of.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: spud]
#4190295 - 05/18/05 09:15 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hey, nice tripple post!
All a Photo Essay proves, is Emoto took some photos of ice crystals, and put 'em in an essay. The photos themselves PROVE they were taken with a camera.
As for your request for this journal, it is 2.5 pages long and costs $29... I'm not coughing that sort of $$$ up for a S&P debate... but, here is how you can obtain a copy:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=511382
Quote:
Dr. Emoto's one peer-reviewed published paper appears to be this one:
----- Healing with Water Masaru Emoto Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. Feb 2004, Vol. 10, No. 1: 19-21 -----
You can download a copy of the paper (for a fairly hefty fee of $29) directly from the JACM website at:
http://www.liebertonline.com/toc/acm/10/1;jsessionid=jV2-kSTVgTBg
If you have access to the EBSCO database, Alt HealthWatch (available at many libraries and universities), you can retrieve a copy of the article through this database as well.
In addition, the paper explicitly invites readers to request reprints directly from Dr. Emoto:
Address reprint requests to:
Masaru Emoto, M.D. I.H.M. Research Institute East Side Building, 1F 1-1-11 Yanagibashi Taito-ku, Tokyo 111-0052 Japan E-mail: info@hado.net
The paper contains a number of photos of frozen water, both crystals and non-crystals, and describes the effects on the crystal formation of various stimulants such as playing rock vs classical music, or wrapping the water vials in words such as "Love & Thanks" (in Japanese) or "Devil"
The paper also discusses the apparent healing effects of what Dr. Emoto calls "HADO waters".
Emoto also sells 3 books... which I haven't read... and his pictures appear in a movie ("What the bleep..."), which I have not seen. I'm not going to quote chapter and verse from things I've never read nor seen, no matter how much you'd like me to.
As for your link,
It is only a matter of time before Emoto's work is either proven or disproven by someone else, but your link is no more proof, than the claims made by Emoto himself. In fact, your link, for the most part... just repeats in a sarcastic tone, Emoto's work and claims. All it proves, is the author disagrees with Emoto. Am I missing something?
Your article sarcastically says Emoto has a degree in Alternative medicine. I already stated this in an earlier post. It disproves nothing.
Your link says Emoto's Essay isn't scientific proof. I too, said this many times. I've never seen Emoto claim it is proof... only evidence. So in this case, Emoto and the author seem to agree as well. So how does this debunk Emoto?
Then, the author goes on saying Emoto's work isn't scientific at all. Which I was quick to point out in earlier posts as well. I imagine Emoto is aware of this as well.
Aside from that, nothing but opinion was offered to disprove Emoto's findings. Opinion is not proof.
The author does not contest the fact Emoto took those pictures, nor does he contest the fact that Emoto conducted these experiments. He just says it needs a double blind test to be scientifically (dis)proven.
The author just bets (a la Swami) that when it IS tested scientifically, nothing will come of Emoto's research.
That is a safe bet to make.
I imagine, some day... people will do their own experiments with water and ice, to prove or disprove Emoto's claims... as experiments go, this one can't be too expensive, or difficult to recreate.
Not a very compelling link at all (It isn't even about Emoto, the author just talks about him for a moment...), and it brings little new info to the table.
I never claimed Emoto's work to be anything but interesting. I'm not pretending Emoto's claims are anything but claims, but it seems he has yet to be disproven.
WHICH HAS BEEN MY POINT THIS ENTIRE TIME.
OK Spud, pretend to ignore what I have just said, while you make another post parroting what I just said to you... and make sure you pretend it was all your idea. Be sure to convince yourself that I am a blind Emoto follower... and try to crush my hopes and dreams... again.
'Till then, Cerv
P.S. I did find this http://www.hado.net/index2.html: Dr. Masaru Emoto will be featured in an internet- radio broadcast onFriday, May 20, 2005 from 1PM-2:30 PM PST.To tune in: Log on to www.adviceradio.com Just click on ?gLISTEN?h
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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seti
n00b
Registered: 12/30/02
Posts: 92
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: Rose]
#4396876 - 07/12/05 05:28 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Too bad this thread got completely hijacked with bickering and hair splitting over stuff that the original poster didn't particularly ask about.
>How did your experience change your views about mushis, or even life?
It would have been interesting to read responses to the question posed, but it's been pretty much killed now.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: seti]
#4397707 - 07/12/05 09:17 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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"All your acts will be consecrated..." - BE HERE NOW
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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GNIOM1498
Death Cup
Registered: 12/15/04
Posts: 945
Loc: My home is where my spiri...
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Too bad this thread got completely hijacked with bickering and hair splitting over stuff that the original poster didn't particularly ask about.
>How did your experience change your views about mushis, or even life? Agreed I started to read this but then everyone Hijacked it with arguments I think this a very interesting subject. If the mushroom is not spiritual to you then just say so don't pick apart what everyone will say.
I believe my mushroom experiences helped dispel my ignorance. I am more open to every view and I always look for the deeper truth of everything. This has happened mainly due to drug laws I used to think any user of drugs should be locked up before November of 2004. But once I took mushrooms it changed my view on drugs realizing that not everything the government or anyone for that matter is telling me is the truth. The experience of mushrooms gave me the closest spiritual quest I believe I am going to get. Mushrooms are sacred to me...why?....well because I believe that it has made me into a better person, less materialistic even though I still have that bad bug in me. I am not as angry and bitter. I believe that the mushroom is a teacher, it is a path in which one can not see without the help of them. I just wish more people could see this.
-------------------- ----ALL MY POSTS ARE FICTIONAL-------
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