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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: faslimy]
    #4144217 - 05/06/05 09:35 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

What I'm saying is that scientists can't actually locate the part of the brain which they suspect contains the conscious mind and all its memories.
So what? What particular tree constitutes a "forest"?

No one can find where all that information is stored in that lump of flesh called a brain.
Once again, so what? How does ignorance of neural function support independent consciousness?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: Swami]
    #4149207 - 05/08/05 02:23 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

You keep identifying brain function, but not the thing that makes them anything other than trees falling in the forest, the thing that makes them real. Without consciousness the brain is just like any other computer. You are overlooking the basis for any of this existing at all. Consciousness is not merely cognitive self- awareness, animals lack that. Consciousness is the most subtle basis of all knowledge and you seem to completely overlook it.

This is one of the main points of discussion about artificial intelligence, just because we can program a computer to recognize itself, does that mean it has consciousness? From your logic if we have consciousness, the computer must as well, and if the computer lacks consciousness so do we.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

Edited by Divided_Sky (05/08/05 09:45 PM)

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InvisibleSuperD
Cacti junky
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Registered: 10/05/03
Posts: 6,648
Loc: The bridgesii bridge
Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4149547 - 05/08/05 08:03 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

let's suppose a person just died next to another person that's still alive. what's the main difference between the two? they both have a heart, lungs, brain, arms, legs etc needed for the average human to function properly, yet one of them no longer is able to do so. the "energy" or "life force" for lack of a better term seems to be missing from the dead person which has lungs and a heart etc fully capable of working. i'm interested in finding some studies on how this is viewed in a more scientific manner


--------------------
:super:D
Manoa said:
I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. :lol:

Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), :pm: me if you have any for trade

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OfflineEgoTripping
journeyman
Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 180
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: SuperD]
    #4165941 - 05/12/05 10:13 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Brain activity is the RESULT of Consciousness, not the cause of. The weight of proof now lies on the skeptics side to explain NDE's, Dreams, Hallucinations and other various forms of altered consciousness. I can explain these perfectly if I use the aformentioned assumption. To say otherwise requires 'Science' to produce some kind of explanation for these phenomena. If they cannot, then I see no reason to see the Brain as anything more than a 'dumb filter', a limitation and nothing more...but also essential and required for this experience.

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OfflineEgoTripping
journeyman
Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 180
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: EgoTripping]
    #4165948 - 05/12/05 10:15 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

To quote a cheesy dialouge from a cheesy (but relevant) movie What Dreams May Come:

Albert: So what is the "me"?
Chris Nielsen: My brain I suppose.
Albert: Your brain ? Your brain is a body part. Like your fingernail or your heart. Why is that the part that's you?
Chris Nielsen: Because I have sort of a voice in my head, the part of me that thinks, that feels, that is aware that I exist at all.
Albert: So if you're aware you exist, then you do. That's why you're still here.

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Offlinepeaceful_gnome
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 67
Loc: BC
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: EgoTripping]
    #4166822 - 05/12/05 02:35 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I haven't read the whole thread and I am a bit short on time, but I would like to share my own spiritual experience with mushrooms. I've only had four level one trips (taking it slowly) and my first one was in January i think. So i havent had any mind blowing experiences yet, but since ive started experiencing mushrooms I have become aware of a female presence inside my mind. A goddess so to speak. The first and most powerful experience was when i was high on marijuana actually. Ive been smoking weed for years, and have never experienced anything like it. But anyway, i was taking a piss when all of a sudden the sun shone through the clouds and filled the room with a brilliant white light. And then a female voice inside my head (i have no idea how i knew it was a female voice, i just knew instantly) began speaking to me. It was a very personal experience so I don't really care to go into detail about what i heard. Since then, I have heard the same voice whispering to me now and then, but only once has it been as powerful as the first time. And the second time it happened i was at an outdoor party on mushrooms (I am a pretty outgoing person so I have no issues with tripping around a lot of people)

The second trip was a bit more incredible. Surrounded by about 100 people partying and dancing (it was a rave) I felt a oneness with all mankind. I realized the similarities between all living things, and my mushroom goddess told me how every living thing has an awareness, or a soul.

Now, I am not entirely certain that what I am experiencing is a spiritual thing or some sort of schizophrenia. But to me, the experience was very real.

Edited by peaceful_gnome (05/12/05 02:40 PM)

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OfflineDoom
Rogue

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 365
Loc: ghost-train city
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: EgoTripping]
    #4166884 - 05/12/05 02:46 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

EgoTripping said:
To quote a cheesy dialouge from a cheesy (but relevant) movie What Dreams May Come:

Albert: So what is the "me"?
Chris Nielsen: My brain I suppose.
Albert: Your brain ? Your brain is a body part. Like your fingernail or your heart. Why is that the part that's you?
Chris Nielsen: Because I have sort of a voice in my head, the part of me that thinks, that feels, that is aware that I exist at all.
Albert: So if you're aware you exist, then you do. That's why you're still here.





....and the punchline is?

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OfflineEgoTripping
journeyman
Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 180
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: Doom]
    #4169182 - 05/13/05 12:39 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Doom said:....and the punchline is?




You're a fag.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: For those of you who see mushrooms as sacred [Re: CJay]
    #4171734 - 05/13/05 04:34 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I emit light - we all do

So does my stove.

Heat is electromagnetic radiation at the long end of the visible wavelength spectrum, i.e. light. So what?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleCJay
Dark Stranger
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Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
Re: For those of you who see mushrooms as sacred [Re: Diploid]
    #4183927 - 05/16/05 07:42 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I emit light - we all do

So does my stove.

Heat is electromagnetic radiation at the long end of the visible wavelength spectrum, i.e. light. So what?




Swami said we didn't, he was picking...and he was wrong.

...and I'm not talking about heat I am talking about laser light. High information capacity light. But anyway I started off talking about the soul and using the common light terminology that people associate with the depths of being. Swami refuted my description, I went on to describe scientifically how the part of us that crosses the span of all biology actually does shine a very real light.

Go back and read it properly, and you will not ask such questions.

Edited by CJay (05/16/05 07:48 PM)

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OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
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Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: Swami]
    #4185269 - 05/17/05 02:26 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Ever since my first trip, I always tell my friends who try shrooms for the first time to be respectful towards the shrooms.
What does that mean? One can be aware of their power to alter reality and know the dos and don'ts and proper dosages, but respectful? I can take one batch of mushrooms and yell at them, direct angry "vibes" and  squash them under my feet and take another batch and gently harvest them with love and sweet music playing and incense burning and no one will be able to tell the difference when tripping.





Quote:

Swami said:
I will still wager heavily. No molecule has yet been shown to respond to, nor store emotions.




You made this wager a long time ago, but I'd like to take you up. How heavily would you care to wager?

:smile:

Water has been "Shown" to respond to, AND store emotions. It just hasn't been "Proven".

If this theory IS proven... it could be pretty fucking cool.

Check this out:
http://www.masaru-emoto.net/english/entop.html
http://www.whatthebleep.com/crystals/

From what I can tell, it needs more research... but it has yet to be disproven. Fucked up? Yup. Cool? Indeed.
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=511382

Humans AND mushrooms are 90% water, so if water can retain and respond to emotion, shrooms can retain and respond to emotion... or at least, the water in the shrooms.

I've just started to research Masaru Emoto, the guy who came up with this theory.

On google,

"Masaru Emoto" gets 60,000+

"Masaru Emoto debunk" gets 24 hits... but I didn't see anything that actually debunked his claims... which should be simple enough to do... if he is full of shit.

Very interesting indeed... do I win your wager? You did say "Shown" not "Proven".

Remember?
Quote:

Swami said:
I will still wager heavily. No molecule has yet been shown to respond to, nor store emotions.




I'd say you've just been shown otherwise. :smile:

Next time, make a wager involving, "Proof" and actually wager something :wink:.

I coulda' been rich.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Edited by Rose (05/17/05 05:08 AM)

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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: faslimy]
    #4185303 - 05/17/05 02:43 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

faslimy said:
No one can find where all that information is stored in that lump of flesh called a brain.



Argument from Ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantiam)

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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: Rose]
    #4185330 - 05/17/05 02:55 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

The shapes of ice crystals are highly dependent on the conditions and rates of freezing, so Emoto's interpretations have no scientific validity.

Emoto has been debunked for a while now. I can dig up a bunch of links supporting homeopathy, it doesn't prove shit. Your links are far from creditable.

He claims that a polluted glass of water with the word "love" written on it will clean itself up, and a second glass of the same water with "hate" written on it will get dirtier. Try this at home. See your results.

So what language does water speak? English? Spanish? Japanese?

Let me guess, humans send off mystical vibrations and auras that do the work, right? Emoto never says.

This reminds me of that book published in the 70s about plants having consciousness and appreciating music and such. Even claimed that plants could talk. It took years before common sense kicked in and the book was debunked.

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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: Rose]
    #4185363 - 05/17/05 03:12 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:


On google,

"Masaru Emoto" gets 60,000+

"Masaru Emoto debunk" gets 24 hits... but I didn't see anything that actually debunked his claims... which should be simple enough to do... if he is full of shit.




That proves nothing. The profitable subject always gets much more hits. You only need 1 debunking site (done right) to disprove all 60,000 sites. Homeopathy gets 1,770,000 hits. Homeopathy debunked gets 1,230. The ratio for that is far larger than the Emoto one, but I'm sure most of us agree homeopathy is a load of crap.

Google is far from a method of accuracy.

Edited by spud (05/17/05 03:36 AM)

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: spud]
    #4185431 - 05/17/05 04:21 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Spud,

It's posts like yours, which remind me why I have a signature line.

You didn't read my last post, you just think you did.

Quote:

spud said:
The shapes of ice crystals are highly dependent on the conditions and rates of freezing, so Emoto's interpretations have no scientific validity.

Emoto has been debunked for a while now. I can dig up a bunch of links supporting homeopathy, it doesn't prove shit. Your links are far from creditable.




I'd rather you dig up a bunch of links debunking Emoto... since that is the guy we are talking about...

If you would care to scroll up, and actually read my last post, you'd see I WAS looking for something (ANYTHING!) debunking the guy. If you have anything, please present it. Otherwise, Emoto's the only one I see with a peer approved, published, Photo Essay.

This can't be too hard to disprove... especially if it has already been debunked... like you claim.

Quote:

spud said:
So what language does water speak? English? Spanish? Japanese?

Let me guess, humans send off mystical vibrations and auras that do the work, right? Emoto never says.




Bullshit. Emoto does say how his experiment worked. THAT is the point of his Photo Essay. Here's another case where you should have READ before you opined. Since you need to catch up on reading, Emoto's Essay is actually more fun to read than my last post, because it contains pictures. If you don't care for reading Spud, you may still enjoy the groovy photos.

READ the report, if memory serves, you will discover water can not read, just like you... aparrently.

Emoto suggests water reacts to, and retains emotion. It didn't matter what was written on the glass, it mattered what emotion people projected when near the water. Often, the testers would do the OPPOSITE of what was written on the glass. They also, tried doing NOTHING... just in case the water could read what was on the glass, and react accordingly. It couldn't.

According to Emoto, the water responded to the emotion, not the text.

According to Emoto's findings, positive feelings made for symmetrical ice crystals while negativity yielded significantly fewer uniform results.

Quote:

spud said:
That proves nothing. 




I sound like a broken record, but if you actually read my last post, you'd see I was quite clear that nothing was "Proven". In fact, that was my point. You see, I am suggesting I won Swami's "Wager", because he didn't ask for proof! He asked to be SHOWN molecules reacting to, and retaining emotion. I SHOWED him EXACTLY what he wagered he'd never see. :smirk: According to the wager, I didn't have to PROVE it, just SHOW it.

From one of my "Bogus" links: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=511382
* It is true though that it is simply a "Photo Essay", which is what Emoto himself titled it. There is nothing scientific about it.

Quote:

spud said:
Google is far from method of accuracy.





Jeezus Christ Spud, did you read a single word that I wrote?

I KNOW Google isn't perfect... I said NONE of the DEBUNK threads I could FIND, were credible (In fact, most of the "Debunk" links were also in favor of Emoto, but just included the word, "Debunk"). This proves nothing. I KNOW. I was just admitting the extent of my Google Search... so if Swami cares to judge my attempt at his wager, he can follow my trail of bread crumbs.

I know Emoto's Photo Essay is scientificly UNPROVEN (this is why, even he calls it a PHOTO ESSAY!)... I don't see Emoto hiding from this fact. All I was saying is; so far, according to my limited search on Google, nobody's "DEBUNK"ed Emoto's Photo Essay. So far, he still has more credibility, than any "Emoto Debunker" I've seen. Most take your approach. They just claim he's been debunked. That proves nothing.

If you can present something debunking his claims, please do so. You may save Swami's pride... just be sure to READ it first.

I am not biased towards Emoto... so far, he's got a SHITLOAD more evidence saying his claims are true, than you (and Google) have presented to the contrary. All he has is a Peer Reviewed, Photo Essay, but what do you have?

This could be a huge discovery, but to date, nothing has been proven.

Emoto's claims were approved by a panel of holistic doctors... I know that is shaky ground. That said the panel which approved him, does sound like a Scientific group... even though they deal in alternative medicine (But even a peer panel of Holistic Healers knows a PHOTO ESSAY when they see one.). And this particular panel isn't known for publishing bullshit.

Damn Spud, I'm a skeptic too. You don't have to talk down to me like you think I believe in Jesus!

Just because I point the n00bs towards Tim Leary when they want to research tripping, doesn't mean I'm a tree hugging hippie with eyes glazed-over. I'm 100% sceptic... until evidence, proof and logic kicks in.

I'd gladly argue with you Spud, but it is silly to watch you argue with me, while you make MY points for me. In the future, you'd do better to read what I write more carefully. You're barking up the wrong tree while preaching to the choir.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Registered: 09/25/03
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: spud]
    #4185435 - 05/17/05 04:26 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

man that water site is bunk...

first of all.. a short list of things that may alter the structure water takes on as it freezes.. just rattled off as i can think of them

rate of freezing, impurities present and quantity present, air pressure and movement (wind) as well as other vibrations that may be present (as they actually would be physically -moving- the water as it freezes)..

and hey, remember that GASES are present in water. Oxygen, CO2? Nitrogen? All kinds of stuff! They fall under the 'impurities' catagory, and do have quite an effect on freezing.

It's a nice idea maybe, but go grab two identical cups, write "LOVE" on one and "HATE" on another. Tape over the words, and have someone else put them in your freezer. Check back in two days or so, and try and predict which was which. Remember, you've got a 50/50 chance there!

I know I got 5 bucks that they look exactly the same.. so long as you don't do something silly like put one right under moving air, or one way in the back and one way in the front where temperature differences would come into play.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #4185440 - 05/17/05 04:37 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Mush, you missed the point of the article as well.

Nobody ever claimed water could read.

Aparantly, people shouldn't take Shroomerite literacy for granted either.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: Rose]
    #4185447 - 05/17/05 04:45 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Oh, no, I'm quite right! Someone did in fact claim water can read!

http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/aug1/consciouswater.html

that was the second of the three links posted.

From that site:

"When the words "thank you" were taped to a bottle of distilled water, the frozen crystals had a similar shape to the crystals formed by water that had been exposed to Bach's "Goldberg Variations" (see right) -- music composed out of gratitude to the man it was named for."

"When water samples are bombarded with heavy metal music or labeled with negative words, or when negative thoughts and emotions are focused intentionally upon them, the water does not form crystals at all and displays chaotic, fragmented structures"

"Here, you can see the results of taping the words "You Fool" to a container of distilled water. Interestingly, the pattern made by "You Fool" was almost identical to the pattern that emerged when heavy metal music was played. Masaru Emoto wonders in his book whether perhaps heavy metal musicians look upon people as fools."


There's obviously pictures associated with those blurbs I haven't included, but...

yeah, that site did in fact claim that water can read things taped to whatever contains it.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #4185463 - 05/17/05 04:59 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Doh,

I'm illiterate too!

I'm going to edit the link out of THAT post and add the link to this one.
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/aug1/consciouswater.html

There.

To be fair... the experiments have actually gone significantly further than that bullshit link. The author is obviously jumping to premature conclusions, from the first paragraph. Heh, I just posted it because I liked the pictures! You have to be careful with these holistic-type links.

Thanks,

That will teach me to talk literacy!


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: an intelligence that exists independent of the trippee? [Re: Rose]
    #4186749 - 05/17/05 01:12 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

You like to believe everyone doesn't read what you wrote if it doesn't align with what you want to hear. That experiment has NO repetition, and the experiments themselves are extremely flawed in nature. Water has numerous conditions that determine it's freezing rates. Occam's Razor would suggest assuming it's our emotions somehow being transferred is not the simplest explanation and therefor illogical.

Also, I read a bit of Emoto's work, once again he never explains exactly how emotions are transferred into water. You say he does then you fail to show me where he does. Please cite it.

Also, he claims to have 150 peer reviewed journals. I can't find one. Can you?

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