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InvisibleSwami
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Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth
    #3466563 - 12/08/04 08:28 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Thoughts?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: Swami]
    #3466569 - 12/08/04 08:29 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

How vague.

Considering the complete lack of elaboration, my response would be:

What ever happened to sweet gentle truth?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: Swami]
    #3466571 - 12/08/04 08:30 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

whichever hurts the person least overall

so, even if it hurts the person to say 'that dress is absolutely horrible' , it may hurt less to tell them in advance then let them go out in it and be embarassed in front of a crowd.

Othertimes the lie is the best option. all depends really


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3466599 - 12/08/04 08:34 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
whichever hurts the person least overall

so, even if it hurts the person to say 'that dress is absolutely horrible' , it may hurt less to tell them in advance then let them go out in it and be embarassed in front of a crowd.

Othertimes the lie is the best option. all depends really




And, to elaborate on my point above, why can't we simply say "You know, I'm not trying to be offensive, but I think that dress is kind of ugly... if you're self conscious about what people think of your appearance, you might want to change before going out."?

Must it be so black and white that we either say "Wow, what a nice dress" or "That dress is absolutely horrible!"?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3466738 - 12/08/04 08:53 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

And, to elaborate on my point above, why can't we simply say "You know, I'm not trying to be offensive, but I think that dress is kind of ugly... if you're self conscious about what people think of your appearance, you might want to change before going out."?

Not to JC or anyone else:

Why can't we simply say, "You know, I'm not trying to be offensive, but I think your thought process is absolutely moronic ... if you're self conscious about what people think of your posts you might want to take a course in science, logic and English before writing."?

Don't think it would fly.  :crazy:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: Swami]
    #3466748 - 12/08/04 08:56 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Not to JC or anyone else:

Why can't we simply say, "You know, I'm not trying to be offensive, but I think your thought process is absolutely moronic ... if you're self conscious about what people think of your posts you might want to take a course in science, logic and English before writing."?

Don't think it would fly.  :crazy:




No, it wouldn't fly... because the bulk of your statement contradicts your opening "softener".

But if you said "You know, I'm not trying to be offensive, but I think you should reconsider the way you view this subject." and presented an alternative view without using wordings that sound snide and elitest, they would very likely listen to you and maybe even consider your view.

The key difference is whether or not your method invokes their ego's defense mechanisms.

Should you have to word things softly? No, not in an ideal world where everyone has their ego under control. But that is not this world.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3466750 - 12/08/04 08:56 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

How vague. Considering the complete lack of elaboration,

I have to be because I am now responsible for everyone's possible misinterpretation and reaction and subsequent years of psychotherapy.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3466756 - 12/08/04 08:57 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

I merely substituted a few words of yours. English instead of dress...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: Swami]
    #3466763 - 12/08/04 08:59 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

That's a convenient way to look at it, but you seem to have overlooked such things as "absolutely moronic" and "you might want to take a course in science, logic and English before writing."

I mean seriously, Swami.. are you really going to stand there and tell me you don't see how easily these words could be read as condescending?


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Offlineoceansize
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3466780 - 12/08/04 09:02 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

The key difference is whether or not your method invokes their ego's defense mechanisms.




Funny, I find this 'sweet gentle' method often arises because of the poster's invoked defense mechanisms, usually in a passive-aggressive manor.


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3466782 - 12/08/04 09:04 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

What if the post ACTUALLY is "absolutely moronic", then what? Does nothing in the world fall under that category?

*sigh* OK then, how about "somewhat retarded"? That is a few tones down.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: Swami]
    #3466783 - 12/08/04 09:04 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

its not just what you say, but how you say it.

this isn't to say that it is your fault when people have buttons to push, but with a little but of thought, the truth doesn't have to push buttons.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: kaiowas]
    #3466792 - 12/08/04 09:06 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

its not just what you say, but how you say it.

Did you just read my prison joke? With no body language or vocal intonation, I believe the what and how amount to the same thing.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: Swami]
    #3466795 - 12/08/04 09:07 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

If you want, we can actually go back and compare exactly WHAT you substituted and what you left alone.

As we do, you will find that the parts you left alone are inconsequential, and the parts you changed are the key points where the difference between "blunt" and "softened gentle approach" are strongly apparent.

Here's mine:

"You know, I'm not trying to be offensive, but I think that dress is kind of ugly... if you're self conscious about what people think of your appearance, you might want to change before going out."

Here's yours:

"You know, I'm not trying to be offensive, but I think your thought process is absolutely moronic ... if you're self conscious about what people think of your posts you might want to take a course in science, logic and English before writing."

First, you replaced "kind of ugly" with "absolutely moronic".

Do you not see the difference in bluntness between these two statements? Do you not see how saying something like "I think maybe you should consider alternate views" is a nicer thing to say than "I think your thought process is absolutely moronic"?

Second, you replaced "you might want to change before going out" with "you might want to take a course in science, logic and English before writing."

Now this one is a bit more subtle, and therefore easier to refute, but it's still a world of difference between what reads as a polite suggestion and what reads as a condescending remark meant to belittle the receiver.

You don't agree??  :confused:

edit: P.S. I absolutely agree with you that certain aspects are missing and are often falsely assumed when reading something textual, for lack of body language etc... HOWEVER, is this not even MORE reason to try to be MORE clear instead of just throwing whatever you want out there without regard for the very fact that text lacks certain aspects of communication; and then using the fact that these aspects are lacking as a convenient cop out to justify what can be read multiple ways?

P.P.S. Swami, I am really not trying to attack you in any way, and I hope you realize that. I am simply trying to help you to find another angle on your approach to helping others. Sometimes blunt is not the answer. Sometimes a more subtle and gentle approach will help to open someone's eyes more effectively than the blunt approach that you adhere to regularly.


Edited by JacquesCousteau (12/08/04 09:13 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3466822 - 12/08/04 09:12 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

First, you replaced "kind of ugly" with "absolutely moronic".

OK, I am convinced that many posts here are "kind of moronic". Am I getting more diplomatic yet?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: Swami]
    #3466832 - 12/08/04 09:14 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Yeah, that's a little better.  :smirk:

My example used the phrase "kind of ugly" for lack of better means of statement. Perhaps MY approach was a bit too blunt as well. Thank you for pointing that out.  :grin:

Perhaps "kind of unappealing" would have been a better way to put it.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3466861 - 12/08/04 09:20 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Hell, let's just use pictographs and forget words.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: Swami]
    #3466871 - 12/08/04 09:22 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

What's a pictograph? :P

Is that like a digital camera?

Sorry, I was born in 1984...  :grin:


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: Swami]
    #3466882 - 12/08/04 09:24 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

body language and vocal tone aren't the only way we communicate, especially on the net.

the type of words and how they are arranged has a say in it as well.

then again...what I may find offensive...another person may not.


here's the thing...think before you post.

think about how another person might view it. I'm not saying to try to think for everyone, but a little effort makes the "truth" a little more accesable to others and thus there is a better chance for the idea to enter their mind rather than who is posting the idea.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Sweet Gentle Lies vs. Brusque Truth [Re: kaiowas]
    #3466900 - 12/08/04 09:28 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

To quote myself (you know, just incase he missed that part.. he didn't respond to it, so I just don't know!!)

P.S. I absolutely agree with you that certain aspects are missing and are often falsely assumed when reading something textual, for lack of body language etc... HOWEVER, is this not even MORE reason to try to be MORE clear instead of just throwing whatever you want out there without regard for the very fact that text lacks certain aspects of communication; and then using the fact that these aspects are lacking as a convenient cop out to justify what can be read multiple ways?


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