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Anonymous

Learning music theory...
    #3465165 - 12/08/04 04:45 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

changes your whole perspective on what is good music and what isn't. I'm just now learning about scales and chords, and it's amazing what I thought was "good" music was actually pretty bad from a technical standpoint, while some other music that I've thought was lame is actually well thought-out and written.

Like, last night, I heard "I Am the Walrus" on the radio and up to now I've always thought it was just a decent song. But now when I hear songs I'm actually listening for the chord progressions and effects used, and from a technical standpoint, this is one of the best songs ever composed. I now understand why the Beatles were so groundbreaking. NOBODY was making music like that back in the 1960s.


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InvisibleMovingTarget

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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: ]
    #3465221 - 12/08/04 04:57 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I didnt find that so much.  I've always been into the complex rhythms associated with drumnbass and Jungle.  Although most people IMO just dont understand them :smile:


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Invisibleoneducktwoducks
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Re: Learning music theory... *DELETED* [Re: ]
    #3465225 - 12/08/04 04:58 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by oneducktwoducks

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Anonymous

Re: Learning music theory... [Re: MovingTarget]
    #3465270 - 12/08/04 05:07 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Well-written music isn't genre-specific. There's a LOT of good drum 'n bass out there.


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Anonymous

Re: Learning music theory... [Re: oneducktwoducks]
    #3465299 - 12/08/04 05:12 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Good point. I'm just saying though, learning the theory has made me enjoy some songs that I didn't really like before, so now I have another way to enjoy music in addition to just the emotions I feel from it.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: ]
    #3465474 - 12/08/04 05:45 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, Max... I have also experienced something very similar as I progress musically. My area of musical interest was widened drastically.

I hear what you are saying about the stuff you "used to think was good"... it's not that it's "not good" now, it's just that it pales in comparison to the more elaborate and creative material that you've opened your eyes to. Does that sound about right? :smile:


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InvisibleHendostan
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: ]
    #3465689 - 12/08/04 06:22 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Oh man, getting into advanced theory will BLOW YOUR MIND. It's as complicated as any other science. No wonder they say some of the best musicians are also great at math/science, they are directly related. I don't mean your A minor - G - F, I'm talkin advanced jazz theory, all the different modes, augmented/diminished scales...ahh, I can freak out putting too much thought and time into that stuff. It's certainly not necessary to be a good musican (think Hendrix) but it does open things up and get you thinking about music in a completely different way. It really speeds up the songwriting and practicing process when you're in a band and you all know at least the basics...sucks when your guitarist can play awesome riffs but doesn't know what a C is.


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OfflineBlastrid
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: Hendostan]
    #3466273 - 12/08/04 07:37 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

my favorite chords are extension chords... so rich and gorgeous


--------------------
Blas'?trid (bl?s tr?d)
    n.  3rd generation derivitave of a combination of 'bastard' and 'blasted'.  Used as both an insult or an expletive.
    ex.  Blastrid!

Stereopattern  <--My music.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: Blastrid]
    #3466321 - 12/08/04 07:46 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Shit man, was that a joke? :grin: Or is there really a kind of chord called extension chords?

I've never heard of them, if so... can you elaborate?


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Anonymous

Re: Learning music theory... [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3466411 - 12/08/04 08:05 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah Jacques that's kinda what I was thinking.

Music theory is just so interesting to me because before I started learning it I didn't think there was some sort of science to making music, but there really is. Advanced music theory really is a science, because it's predictable and reliable just like any other science.


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Invisiblespores
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3466435 - 12/08/04 08:08 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

pretty sure he means 9, 11, 13, 7sus4 chords etc., anything besides the regular 1-3-5-7 setup.

never heard the term extention chords, but I've heard those kind of intervals called extentions when referring to such chords.

that's my guess anyways :wink:, and yeah, theory rox my sox :smile:

DH


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: ]
    #3466539 - 12/08/04 08:23 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Now listen to some good metal and you will be amazed. Its all about music theory and technical proficiency.


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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: Catalysis]
    #3466600 - 12/08/04 08:34 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, what he said

and listen to some Dream Theater while you're at it


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: Catalysis]
    #3466836 - 12/08/04 09:15 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I would listen to some good metal for the music theory aspect of it if it weren't for the fact that it's so often harsh and abrasive.  :sad:


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3466893 - 12/08/04 09:26 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Try Some Helstar? I've noticed that the Nosferatu album is actually pretty smooth.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3466911 - 12/08/04 09:29 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

You just have to find the right stuff... some of it is actually very mellow. "Metal" is a VERY broad category and there is probably about 500 sub-genres of it. Death metal, Thrash metal, Jazz metal, Neo-classical metal, Black Metal, Progressive metal.. just to name a few.

What about it do you find abrasive? The vocals? The riffs? What metal bands have you heard turn you away? What metal bands have you heard that you like?
What kind of sound would you like to hear? I can make a few recommendations.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: Shroomism]
    #3467006 - 12/08/04 09:44 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I find screaming abrasive, unless it's done tastefully and rarely, only as an accent to the singing...

I find continuous double-bass drumming to be abrasive.

I find heavy gain guitar with no low end especially abrasive.

I don't remember the names of the bands that turned me away, heh.. it's hard to remember names of bands that don't appeal to you.

But I've had my friend Brandon (FireworksGod) send me various metal that didn't appeal to me at all.. and this was after he said the same thing.. "you just gotta find the right stuff" heh.

I like metal bands that don't sound like what the common stereotypical "metal sound" is. So therefore they might not be classified as metal, and therefore I don't know which metal bands I like. :P

But some examples of somewhat heavy bands that appeal to me would be:

System Of A Down
Chevelle
Dredg
Deftones
Finger Eleven
Nonpoint
Onesidezero
Tool

To pinpoint what it is about these bands that I prefer over most "metal" that I've heard, it's mainly the melodic vocals and lack of generic-metal-sounding "jackhammer" drumming... but there is more to it than that, I'm sure.. just can't pinpoint it really.

P.S. I hate to categorize music by genre. I like bands that I like, and I don't like bands that I don't like. Bands that don't fit cleanly into one genre are much more likely to appeal to me than a band that does fit cleanly into one genre, and this includes metal. That's why most of the bands I listed--while "metal"ish to me--probably aren't considered metal by anyone who "listens to metal".

If that makes any sense. :smile:


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InvisibleJim
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3467019 - 12/08/04 09:47 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

the best way to learn anything, is to transcribe it


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Use the Fucking Reply To Feature You Lazy Pieces of Shit!

afoaf said:
Jim, if you were in my city, I would let you fuck my wife.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3468124 - 12/09/04 01:10 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Alright.. I just spent the better part of three hours writing up a metal guide. I hope it helps you find something you like.. check out the 'progressive metal' section particularly. I'm going to be adding more bands over the next couple of days too.. that's just a start.


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: ]
    #3468149 - 12/09/04 01:14 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

dont fall into the common musical elitist point of view, which is that if the chords arent complex, the song isnt good.

The truth is, anything is great, regardless of its complexity, as long as it can still communicate with you.

Simple can be awesome, complex can be awesome, in the middle can be awesome :smile:

--Krem


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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InvisibleJim
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: Kremlin]
    #3468205 - 12/09/04 01:26 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

dont fall into the common musical elitist point of view, which is that if the chords arent complex, the song isnt good.

The truth is, anything is great, regardless of its complexity, as long as it can still communicate with you.

Simple can be awesome, complex can be awesome, in the middle can be awesome

--Krem

look at the beatles. they were masters of the major 7.

For jazz learning your modal scales are important, but for a piano player, the best advice ever is to never lift your fingers off of the keys. Keep them down and personal. I think Tony Levins said that.

For B3, its all about voicings. you can play the same chord 100 different ways and they will all sound different. (If you play B3, try turning some drawbars OFF. I have met a few players lately who never do this). I personally play in my right hand the 3,7 while walking around the root in my left hand. Great for comping. That is the way to play funk clavi too, but dont walk the left hand, just hammer out a descending blues scale intermittenly with the right hand. Try to stay away from playing right and left hands at the same time-this will make it sound more alive and funky. With funk keep it simple. I said all that just to agree to keep it simple.

Ive spent years studying music theory. In highschool I was an allstate trumpet player, in the music union doing gigs, and playing in funk bands. I have even played back up lead for the circus when it came to town. If you have never played with the circus it is hell.
Went to skidmore jazz institute for three years while in college. It is a summer program for college credit.


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Use the Fucking Reply To Feature You Lazy Pieces of Shit!

afoaf said:
Jim, if you were in my city, I would let you fuck my wife.


Edited by GratefulJim (12/09/04 01:27 AM)


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OfflineBlastrid
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: Jim]
    #3468944 - 12/09/04 05:40 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, I meant by extension chords:
Chords that use extension intervals such as

Add 9, 11, b13, sus4, etc.

I mean, a major chord can be boring sometimes. How bout throwing in a 9th?
D F# A E ooooohhhh :smile:



Music theory went out the window in academic 20th century composition. After the romantic period, people like Varese, Cage, Schoenberg, and Stravinsky totally rebelled against any traditional music theory and rearranged the 12 pitches (from octave to octave) in any order they like. Rather than writing a G major chord, it would turn into an interval vector, like [0,1,2,6] or something. Or create a melody based on timbre, rather than pitch. Or, put metal bolts and nuts in the piano strings to make a different 'dirty' sound...

Crazy bastards. If it weren't for Steve Reich and tape pioneers, we wouldn't have electronic music.


--------------------
Blas'?trid (bl?s tr?d)
    n.  3rd generation derivitave of a combination of 'bastard' and 'blasted'.  Used as both an insult or an expletive.
    ex.  Blastrid!

Stereopattern  <--My music.


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InvisibleJim
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: Blastrid]
    #3471672 - 12/09/04 06:33 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

dude. listen to the Paul Hindemith trumpet concerto. that is whacked... that piano part is so freaking hard. I hate having to accompany people for that solo.


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Use the Fucking Reply To Feature You Lazy Pieces of Shit!

afoaf said:
Jim, if you were in my city, I would let you fuck my wife.


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OfflineNosferatuMan
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: Kremlin]
    #3473259 - 12/09/04 11:09 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kremlin said:
dont fall into the common musical elitist point of view, which is that if the chords arent complex, the song isnt good.

The truth is, anything is great, regardless of its complexity, as long as it can still communicate with you.

Simple can be awesome, complex can be awesome, in the middle can be awesome :smile:

--Krem




Yeah, should we not like Merzbow or Stockhausen because they don't lump in with other artists who follw the 12 tone scale?

Everything Bach did was harmonically complex, but a lot of people think his music is stale, and nothing more than scales. I'm not one of those people, it's just an opinion some people like to throw around.


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: Jim]
    #3474330 - 12/10/04 02:38 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

i should clarify what i was saying more

I prefer more complex voicings of the chords, but it is also very nice to just jump back to some basic power chords here and there.  And i meant to say more precisely that chord progressions shouldnt have to be complex for the song to be good...not necessarily just the chords.

All in all, if you can feel it, its all good :smile:


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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OfflineMetatrad
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: Kremlin]
    #3476608 - 12/10/04 04:20 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I've been playing guitar about 10-11 months now. I haven't really been concentrating on doing anything in particular, just trying to train my hands.

I don't know any theory at all (I've got a good book explaining how to read music and how all the notes and chords relate to the guitar, I just need to get around to reading it.), but just playing guitar a bit has definitely changed the way I listen to music. The complex stuff seems even more impressive, and the simpler stuff is cool because it makes me want to bust out the guitar and try to play it.


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Offlineabhi
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: Blastrid]
    #3479506 - 12/11/04 01:07 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Blastrid said:
I mean, a major chord can be boring sometimes. How bout throwing in a 9th?
D F# A E ooooohhhh :smile:





That right there just put a big smile on my face :grin:


How about the Bb/D in the B section of "Killing me softly with his song". 

Ooooohhhh ...


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OfflineGetTheFuckOut
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Re: Learning music theory... [Re: abhi]
    #3481007 - 12/11/04 10:46 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

i think no one made music like miles davis, tony williams lifetime, or king crimson in the sixities...well the grateful dead were getting fairly out there too....

the beatles were good at straight forward song writing...but the prog and fusion is where the stunning-ahead-of-your-time-technical abilities are...


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<
I have logged in this once so that I can set the "last seen" feature up.  let the faggots flow forth into OTD and have it.  Its funny how they all grew nuts after I left.  I'm not here, I'm not reading, but I urge you all to keep melting down over me.  I know, I hurt alot of people, and they deserved it.  epic win for me, epic fail for you. 

ythan, you rock dude.  i feel that my time at the shroomery was very positive and enjoyable, but this site is no longer for me. im not mad or upset or disappointed, i just want no part in a pg rated faggot festival.
<


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