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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
What does the 2nd Amendment mean?
    #3460593 - 12/07/04 06:20 PM (12 years, 2 days ago)

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

My only question, aside from all of the information in the other post about a similar topic, is;

How can you possibly think that the Founding Fathers gave us this statement to ensure that the military had the right to be armed? That just seems so self-evident and illogical that no further explanation is merited.


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Anonymous

Re: What does the 2nd Amendment mean? [Re: SoopaX]
    #3460640 - 12/07/04 06:32 PM (12 years, 2 days ago)

we really don't need another one of these. i hope that the ongoing one will be the last.


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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
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Re: What does the 2nd Amendment mean? [Re: SoopaX]
    #3460673 - 12/07/04 06:39 PM (12 years, 2 days ago)

This probably didn't deserve it's own thread but I'll post what I feel the 2nd amendment represents.

At the time the U.S. did not have a standing army. The citizens were meant to defend themselves. Perhaps because the US didn't have a standing army and perhaps because the US had just declared independence from an oppressive state their was most likely not an Us and Them attitude. Today the military is Them and the citizens are US and some people feel that we are entitled to different rights.

I believe the 2nd amendment represented the citizens since they were to be the ones who would comprise the milita. There wouldn't have been an Us and Them simply an US, the citizenry.

Quote:

the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.




This part I feel is very important since, as mush pointed out, the Bill of Rights is meant to limit government and not citizens rights. There would have been no reason, given the historical context, to limit a citizens right to keep and bear arms. There would have been reason to limit the governments ability to take a person's firearms, once again, especially considering from whom U.S. citizens had just declared independence.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: What does the 2nd Amendment mean? [Re: SoopaX]
    #3464044 - 12/08/04 12:44 PM (12 years, 1 day ago)

That just seems so self-evident and illogical that no further explanation is merited.

Judging by the last 60 years of court judgements it's certainly self-evident.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: What does the 2nd Amendment mean? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3464939 - 12/08/04 04:01 PM (12 years, 1 day ago)

Which judgements are you talking about? Do you not realize that you got schooled by mush as per wondering what a "militia" is? If their were so many rulings by the Supreme Court against firearm ownership, why can I still buy guns? Why was the Brady Bill struck down? Do those seem indicitave of a court that doesn't think people have the right to own guns?

Also, you seemed to either miss or ignore my point. Do you really think that they thought the second most important part of this new country was to make sure that the government didn't infringe upon the rights of the state-run military to own guns? That just seems a trifle idiotic, doesn't it?


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: What does the 2nd Amendment mean? [Re: SoopaX]
    #3465242 - 12/08/04 05:00 PM (12 years, 1 day ago)

Militia and military are ntot he same thing. They say to keep an milita armed so the Government could never force tyranny on people.

If the United States turned into a tyranny the first thing they would do is take away guns.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: What does the 2nd Amendment mean? [Re: SoopaX]
    #3465338 - 12/08/04 05:17 PM (12 years, 1 day ago)



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OfflineShroomyMcPot
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Re: What does the 2nd Amendment mean? [Re: ]
    #3466085 - 12/08/04 07:12 PM (12 years, 1 day ago)

I think allowing people to bear arms was meant to allow the citizens to have some power to protect themselves if government ever got out of control. At that time an armed citezenry could defend themselves against an army.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: What does the 2nd Amendment mean? [Re: ShroomyMcPot]
    #3466211 - 12/08/04 07:27 PM (12 years, 1 day ago)

It still is possible for an armed citizenry to defend themselves against an army -- of any size, honestly.

Yes, cities may be destroyed. Yes, you may have no electricity, and yes, you may not have a car.

It's called playing your strengths. If an army invaded, or even our own army.. obviously it would be a Bad Idea to fight on their terms, and a Good Idea to revert to guerilla tactics. The same shit that we still have problems fighting against.
With enough leaders taken down, eventually no new ones will step up to take their place.. now, an invading army, it would be hard to get to their leaders.. but a domestic invader? A tyranny from Washington? Those leaders are vulnerable. The guerillas would be both aggressors able to strike any point of the military force, as well as simply another face in the crowd.

Don't let anyone fool you or convince you otherwise. Pushed far enough, the fact that we still own guns would at the very least severely hinder any attempts at tyrannical control from washington.. and I'd rather severely hinder it than simply roll over and give up.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: What does the 2nd Amendment mean? [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3466426 - 12/08/04 08:07 PM (12 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Mushmonkey said:


Don't let anyone fool you or convince you otherwise. Pushed far enough, the fact that we still own guns would at the very least severely hinder any attempts at tyrannical control from washington.. and I'd rather severely hinder it than simply roll over and give up.





Correct.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
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Re: What does the 2nd Amendment mean? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #3466708 - 12/08/04 08:48 PM (12 years, 1 day ago)

If people didn't use guns to kill other people, they'd find something else to use like knives, clubs, etc. Guns have a way of creating equality among people. With weapons like knives and clubs the most skilled opponent usually wins. Guns seem to remove some of the skill factor.


Edited by Great_Satan (12/08/04 08:52 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: What does the 2nd Amendment mean? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #3468373 - 12/09/04 01:58 AM (12 years, 1 day ago)

They say to keep an milita armed so the Government could never force tyranny on people.

The people of Iraq were armed. Saddam never had any problem. Go figure.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Registered: 05/10/02
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Re: What does the 2nd Amendment mean? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3469601 - 12/09/04 11:04 AM (12 years, 1 day ago)

We've already established in other threads that merely being armed isn't enough, people must have the desire, the will and take action to resist their government. Or would you like to argue that small arms possess the qualities of consciousness and the ability to perform self-directed activity so they are able to resist a government of their own will?

We've also already established that if the Iraqis were unarmed it would make their subjugation to the imperial forces easier. Or would like to argue that a totally disarmed Iraqi population would have resulted in the same or more casualties to U.S. forces and required a greater effort to subdue the Iraqis?


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
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Re: What does the 2nd Amendment mean? [Re: Autonomous]
    #3469844 - 12/09/04 12:12 PM (12 years, 1 day ago)

people must have the desire, the will and take action to resist their government

Or that they had the desire and the will but legal small arms had no bearing on the success of their rebellion?

BTW, don't you think if they had the will and desire they'd be able to set up illegal supply routes to arm themselves? Is any guerilla army worth the name really gonna be reduced to lining up outside "Bubbas gun store"?

We've also already established that if the Iraqis were unarmed it would make their subjugation to the imperial forces easier

But remember this has nothing to do with whether or not you can buy the guns legally at the local gun store. You can get armed in other ways.

Indeed, havn't the americans introduced gun control in Iraq? And the resistance is still exploding all across the country? How do you explain that?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: What does the 2nd Amendment mean? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3469905 - 12/09/04 12:24 PM (12 years, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Indeed, havn't the americans introduced gun control in Iraq? And the resistance is still exploding all across the country? How do you explain that?



Gun control doesn't work.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
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Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: What does the 2nd Amendment mean? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3470481 - 12/09/04 02:30 PM (12 years, 21 hours ago)

Are you up to engaging in an honest and open discourse on this subject? Are you willing to question your beliefs and re-asses them in light of the facts? If not, please ignore the following questions I have brought up in response to your statements and position.

"Or that they had the desire and the will but legal small arms had no bearing on the success of their rebellion?"
This then brings me to ask that you please provide answers to the following questions:
- Why are these same small arms being currently used by the Iraqi resistence?
- Why are these small arms used in the killing and wounding of U.S. forces?
- Why are the U.S. forces trying to take these arms away from Iraqis?
- Do you think that there would be more or less U.S. casualties if these arms were not being used by the Iraqis?

"But remember this has nothing to do with whether or not you can buy the guns legally at the local gun store."
What is your point? That if we limit legally available arms to pea shooters that this then invalidates the original intent of the second amendment? What part of "shall not be infringed" doesn't make sense to you?

Since you seem to be stuck on the notion that currently legally available firearms in the U.S. have no use in the modern military, I would like your assesment of the military value of the following legal types of weapons.

A semi-auto rifle in .308 caliber.
- Useful or not?
- Used by modern military forces or not?
- Considered dangerous in the hands of enemy combatants or not?

A bolt action .50 caliber rifle.
- Useful or not?
- Used by modern military forces or not?
- Considered dangerous in the hands of enemy combatants or not?

A bolt action rifle in .308 caliber.
- Useful or not?
- Used by modern military forces or not?
- Considered dangerous in the hands of enemy combatants or not?

A pump action 12 gauge shotgun.
- Useful or not?
- Used by modern military forces or not?
- Considered dangerous in the hands of enemy combatants or not?

A .45 caliber semi-auto pistol.
- Useful or not?
- Used by modern military forces or not?
- Considered dangerous in the hands of enemy combatants or not?

A 9mm semi-auto pistol.
- Useful or not?
- Used by modern military forces or not?
- Considered dangerous in the hands of enemy combatants or not?

A 12 gauge semi-auto shotgun.
- Useful or not?
- Used by modern military forces or not?
- Considered dangerous in the hands of enemy combatants or not?

A .300 Win Mag bolt action rifle.
- Useful or not?
- Used by modern military forces or not?
- Considered dangerous in the hands of enemy combatants or not?

A .338 Lapua bolt action rifle.
- Useful or not?
- Used by modern military forces or not?
- Considered dangerous in the hands of enemy combatants or not?

A .223 semi-auto rifle.
- Useful or not?
- Used by modern military forces or not?
- Considered dangerous in the hands of enemy combatants or not?

A 7.62x39 semi-auto rifle.
- Useful or not?
- Used by modern military forces or not?
- Considered dangerous in the hands of enemy combatants or not?

Your correct answers to the previous questions will reveal your honesty and knowledge of the subject. I predict that you will avoid most if not all of the questions, as honest answers would undermine your position and incorrect answers would reveal the true depth of your knowledge.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: What does the 2nd Amendment mean? [Re: Autonomous]
    #3482160 - 12/11/04 05:09 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think hes going to answer.


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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