Home | Community | Message Board


Edabea
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Question for you science junkies
    #3457727 - 12/07/04 01:05 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

If time is a dimension, as string theory says, do present events shape the past in the same way they shape the future? Would it be theoretically possible to alter the past? Why or why not?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: silversoul7]
    #3457820 - 12/07/04 01:23 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Some of the weirder aspects quantum weirdness say that you can. This could lead to knowledge spontaneously appearing out of nowhere.

For example, say that you discover some new knowledge. I go back in time and give you that knowledge years before you discovered it. When I return to the present, there will be a paradox because I got the knowledge from you before going back in time, but you received it from me in the past and so could not have given it to me before my trip.

The available evidence suggests that this may be a possible condition even though it doesn't make any sense. More research will hopefully tell if this is true or not.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (12/07/04 04:43 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleshroomydan
exshroomerite
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: Diploid]
    #3457905 - 12/07/04 01:40 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

That's the story from "Back to the Future" isn't it?


My very limited understanding of Einstein's work and quantum mechanics is that to travel back in time, or to effect the past in any way, would require traveling through space faster than the speed of light. This however is impossible because as an object moves faster its mass increases as per special relativity E=mc2. As an object's speed approaches the speed of light, its mass approaches infinity. Theoretically, if an objects speed were to surpass the speed of light, then it would travel backwards in time, however its mass would also be greater than infinity, and this is not possible.


I have read that the results of some particle accelerator experiments can be interpreted and graphed with particles traveling backward through time for a few picoseconds, but my understanding is that there are other ways to interpret the data which exclude negative time durations.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 20,253
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: shroomydan]
    #3458261 - 12/07/04 03:01 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

there is a very thin time dimension (a mere fraction of a second).
if it were possible to jump back a fraction of a second.
and
if that jump put you in the same place relative to this dimension such that you could again jump back ( which I don't think it can)
then you could iterate into the past.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: shroomydan]
    #3458282 - 12/07/04 03:06 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

As an object's speed approaches the speed of light, its mass approaches infinity.

You're correct, but this is not the only method of time travel that has been conjectured. The equations of General Relativity yield odd results if a sufficiently-large gravitational source is introduced. Given sufficiently intense space-time warping due to gravity, a phenomenon known as a Closed Timelike Curve occurs. A traveler along one of these curves would eventually wind up back at the same place *AND TIME* where his journey began.

This is all conjecture, but it's bourn out by the mathematics, and to-date, no prohibition to time travel has been discovered by physicists. Time travel doesn't make sense, but there is a lot in physics recently that doesn't make sense.

I have read that the results of some particle accelerator experiments can be interpreted and graphed with particles traveling backward through time for a few picoseconds, but my understanding is that there are other ways to interpret the data which exclude negative time durations.

Well, to be precise, these very, very tiny time travels some particles have been observed doing are, in part, a function of some necessary approximations in the coefficients of the equations and some measured constants. The imprecision of these approximations and constants may very well account for the observed time travel.

The jury is still out...  :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (12/07/04 03:15 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: shroomydan]
    #3458395 - 12/07/04 03:43 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

As an object's speed approaches the speed of light, its mass approaches infinity.

So you are saying that Marlon Brando was moving a lot faster than we gave him credit for...  :smirk:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,586
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: silversoul7]
    #3458630 - 12/07/04 07:48 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

do present events shape the past in the same way they shape the future?

Yes, though it is not due to time-travel, as some have said.

Physics treats Time about the same as it treats the more familiar spatial dimensions. Time does not have a "direction" of flow...time just is, and we move through it. We happen to be "stuck" moving in only one direction, though. Physics works just as well in "reverse" as it does forwards - an egg can roll off a table and break on the floor, but the physics works the same in reverse: the yolk and egg peices could all fly together into a solid egg which then flies up onto the table. Only difference is an increase in entropy one way, but a decrease the other way.

The past depends on the future, because the future depends on the past. If you do away with our human linear view of time, you can see why.


--------------------
Like my post? Hit me up!
BTC - 1KqrSHZ1C3NsQP4g3PkHhppBnhdgyXr6sB


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinedeff
lovelightbliss
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 8,413
Loc: all this
Last seen: 21 hours, 42 minutes
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: trendal]
    #3460014 - 12/07/04 04:05 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

well...

"our" meaning of shape, that is the casual relation through "temporal" time, cause/effect, is not the same at all as what would APPEAR to be linked in a "reverse" conscious scanning of the dimension.

what makes "sense" is that which applies and matches to previously engrained patterns in our experience.

we are temporal, in a strange overlapping way, but time itself is not

cause and effect is not objective, it is the observation of SEPERATE instances in spacetime through our subjective observatory means

a pattern can be found anywhere, so long as there is an observer and past experience, itself in the present in the form of fixed neuro-patterns representing memory.

and yet, all WE have is NOW, not moving 'foward' NOR 'backward'.

our perception of this flow is hard to explain (atleast my views on it).

take person A - he's frozen in a 'timeframe' of "grabbing a cookie" (clearly not an instantaneous ACTION, but again - this is hard to explain)

now person B, elsewhere in spacetime (mainly displaced through time) is now frozen in a timeframe of swallowing said cookie, with the MEMORY of grabbing and eating it AS A PATTERN in the PRESENT instantaneous frame, from which his mind accesses and layers in seemingly sequential order, to give rise to the PERCEPTION of eating the cookie.

really person A and person B are DIFFERENT. Person B however has a "memory" of an event similar to what person A experienced, which was "recorded" is person A.

Of course, the actual bicognitive access of these memories itself is a temporal action relying on the "passing" of timeframes, which is why it gets really confusing

you can just keep breaking it apart, and yet

doing so takes more time :wink:


--------------------



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: deff]
    #3460065 - 12/07/04 04:16 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

You borrowed my cookie analogy from last year without giving me credit!

*Swami pouts and hides in bedroom*


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinedeff
lovelightbliss
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 8,413
Loc: all this
Last seen: 21 hours, 42 minutes
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: Swami]
    #3460177 - 12/07/04 04:37 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

cookie analogy from last year?

please enlighten me, m'lord :smile:


--------------------



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: deff]
    #3460273 - 12/07/04 05:01 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Seems I am one of the few who has conquered the concept of a SEARCH ENGINE.

02/04 Illogical and Unanswerable Questions

I know all anologies are weak, but let's try anyway for the purpose of clarification / discussion. For the holidays, I baked some yummy cookies. A cookie is actually also a process (I will define an object as a time snapshot of process; a process frozen, if you will.)

Note: these are not really steps, but also a continuum. Step are merely a linguistic tool for ease of discussion, but are frequently mistaken for discrete processes.

1. I bought the ingredients. Is my bag full of sugar, flour, chips, etc. a cookie?

2. I mixed the ingredients. Is my bowl full of mixed sugar, flour, chips, etc. a cookie?

3. I dab the dough on a cookie sheet. Are my separated blobs of dough now cookies?

4. I put the cookie sheet in the oven. Are they now cookies? How about at 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes? When I take them out? When they cool down?

5. Maybe they aren't cookies until I taste one.

At what exact point in time does the cookie "spirit" enter this process? Slice this entire process into nanoseconds and point to the nanosecond that goop turned into cookie. It cannot be done. When does the process become an object or is the entire question seemingly linguistically logical, but philosophically meaningless?

Note to potential respondents: While I do not recommend illegal activity, you made need to smoke a phatty before tackling this.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinedeff
lovelightbliss
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 8,413
Loc: all this
Last seen: 21 hours, 42 minutes
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: Swami]
    #3460331 - 12/07/04 05:14 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

woah there's a search engine?!! gasp!

"is the entire question seemingly linguistically logical, but philosophically meaningless?"

exactly! :smile:

awesome analogy, m'lord, but slightly different from the one the poster under my name presented roughly an hour ago :wink:


--------------------



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: deff]
    #3460483 - 12/07/04 05:54 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, your idea was somewhat different, but it was MY FUCKING COOKIE!  :mad2:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: Swami]
    #3460742 - 12/07/04 06:54 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I don't bake cookies; I bake... uhm... brownies.

Eat one of my brownies, and you won't need no phatty!  :rasta:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: Diploid]
    #3460796 - 12/07/04 07:10 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

As a Cordon Bleu-certified chef, it irks me that people bake MJ in cookies and brownies. Do you put oregano in jello? Taragon in vodka? Chives in ice cream?

Good god, man. Make a nice lasagna or veal picata to put your herb in.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: Swami]
    #3460918 - 12/07/04 07:41 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

A little off topic, but then cooking is part science...

it irks me that people bake MJ in cookies and brownies. Do you put oregano in jello? Taragon in vodka? Chives in ice cream?

Eh, other herbs, like mint, go well with chocolate; why not MJ? I have to admit, though, lasagna is a better choice.

As a Cordon Bleu

I'm no Cordon Bleu, but I doubt you'd turn down a plate of Herb Crusted Chicken a-la Diploid with Lightly Steamed Asparagus Tips Tossed with Ground Toasted Almond and a big dollop of Garlic and Cream Mashed Malanga on the side.  :smile:

Dam, now I'm hungry.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleshroomydan
exshroomerite
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: Diploid]
    #3461698 - 12/07/04 10:30 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not a chef or anything but I think the flavors of cannabis and chocolate go quite well together.

My favorite is the Chocolate Pot Milkshake. Yummmmmmmm...


But you know....

This thread is about time travel I think. A chocolate pot milkshake can make you bungee jump out of reality, but not travel back in time. :tongue:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineoceansize
fuckin' right.

Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 216
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: trendal]
    #3461766 - 12/07/04 10:48 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

nuh uh trendal NUH UH!!!

Physics does not work as well in revered time. Everything else might get to be a two way street but not Entropy. You can't just have a passive flow towards more order.

This of course doesn't matter on the quantum level, or even so much the molecular, since entropy depends on the law of big numbers, and experiments using tiny beads(latex i think?) show that order can increase for large fractions of seconds in closed systems.


--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineoceansize
fuckin' right.

Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 216
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: oceansize]
    #3461811 - 12/07/04 10:57 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

the exception I was talking about- just found it in another thread

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992572


--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Question for you science junkies [Re: oceansize]
    #3462348 - 12/08/04 12:49 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Everything else might get to be a two way street but not Entropy.

The Finite Improbability Generator envisioned by Douglas Adams is an amazing device. With it you can, for example, calculate exactly how improbable some thermodynamic event is, feed the number to the machine, and voila, all the molecules in the your hostesses underwear will simultaneously jump one meter to the left.

It's great fun at parties.  :grin:

Sorry, I couldn't resist... it's the brownies...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (12/08/04 01:27 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Ideas on Philosophy of Science
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Time Slave 7,905 152 04/26/09 10:54 PM
by Mr. Mushrooms
* Science as a vice
( 1 2 3 all )
ShroomismM
2,082 41 11/25/04 10:13 PM
by Mixomatosis
* What is the difference between science and philosophy?
( 1 2 3 all )
Mr. Mushrooms 3,283 48 06/07/08 10:54 PM
by Mr. Mushrooms
* Science the ultimate tool?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Icelander 4,832 94 08/05/05 02:13 PM
by EquilibriuM
* Science & Awareness
( 1 2 3 all )
Chronic7 2,825 59 01/28/09 03:02 AM
by jivJaN
* Einstein A Father of Science Believed in GOD...
( 1 2 3 all )
BleedingSickness 3,878 42 10/07/02 04:00 PM
by Zahid
* On Jewish Science, & Gentile Holocaust luciferhorus 979 8 05/20/05 10:09 PM
by Huehuecoyotl
* The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong.
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Mr. Mushrooms 6,194 142 03/16/09 11:36 PM
by Mr. Mushrooms

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, DividedQuantum
958 topic views. 1 members, 8 guests and 11 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Mushrooms.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.091 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 16 queries.