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InvisibleRavus
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Facts and Opinions
    #3456686 - 12/06/04 09:51 PM (12 years, 1 day ago)

It is my opinion that there are no facts. All facts are just opinions, and there can be nothing created by humans without bias by the ego of that human

This is an opinion. What becomes of facts?

How do you differentiate between facts and opinions? You can only verify facts by your senses and other humans really, which all share the same human bias as you. Does this not make all facts just human-shared opinions?

Fact: the sky is blue. Yet what if you are color-blind? Or better yet, what if you have evolved to see more than our simple color spectrum, and now can see the sky in a different way than blue? It becomes an opinion that you in fact see the sky as blue, and even if it is shared by others who share your bias (the sensory perception of blue,) it is still just an opinionated perception


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Registered: 06/24/03
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Re: Facts and Opinions [Re: Ravus]
    #3456716 - 12/06/04 09:57 PM (12 years, 1 day ago)

Excellent observations. I am anxious to see where this one leads...


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Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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Invisibleshroomydan
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Registered: 07/04/04
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Re: Facts and Opinions [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3457590 - 12/07/04 12:33 AM (12 years, 21 hours ago)

There have been several post in the past where I have battled this one out with skeptics. You can search for them if you want.

There are two types of truths: truths of reason and truths of fact (this is from Leibniz)
http://www.philosophypages.com/hy/4j.htm#levels

An example of a truth of reason: All triangles have three sides.

An example of a truth of fact: George Bush was the president of the USA in 2003.

Truths of fact can be disputed because they rely on sensory input. Truths of reason can not be disputed rationally.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Facts and Opinions [Re: Ravus]
    #3457620 - 12/07/04 12:41 AM (12 years, 21 hours ago)

This is just another way of not excepting responsibility.

If all facts are opinions. Then it frees you from any real responsibilities doesn't it ?

It is far easier to just float through life with Zero responsibilities.


I have noticed that a great many of the post like this, are just this, a escape form any real responsibilities.

If you do not have to except anything therefore you are not liable for any of your actions

Neat trick

But sadly it is a lie.................


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Facts and Opinions [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3457659 - 12/07/04 12:50 AM (12 years, 21 hours ago)

Why would not accepting everything as absolute beyond our thin layer of human perception give me freedom from all consequences? If I shoot myself in the head there is a probability I will still die, and I must accept that consequence. Even if this was a virtual reality game, and I would just wake up and take off my goggles and live life, to the best of my knowledge I still must accept the consequences I know about at this time

I accept the responsibilities that I need to survive, for the most part; heat, food, air and water. I think you're imposing the responsibilities that you need to accept to feel good on others, such as the need for morality perhaps, organized religion, Jesus, but really it is just your opinion that it is easier to live with no responsibilities. In the end, it is those who take too many responsibilities who take the easier route. Not many people can go out into nature, survive and live to the least of their responsibilities.

Quote:

But sadly it is a lie.................




I think that is an opinion  :smirk:


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Facts and Opinions [Re: shroomydan]
    #3457689 - 12/07/04 12:58 AM (12 years, 21 hours ago)

Quote:


Truths of fact can be disputed because they rely on sensory input. Truths of reason can not be disputed rationally.




I don't see how truths of reason do not rely on sensory input just as much of truths of facts do. Let's take your example of a triangle

How do we know a triangle has 3 sides? We see it has three side, we count it, we've been told it has three sides. But that is just our sensory input, telling us it has three sides. It is what we observe, and human observation is not absolute. For something to be a fact, it must be absolute- there are no exceptions, and no way around it. How can you measure a triangle, which is supposedly absolute in that it has 3 sides, with a measure that is very subjective, and changes from person to person, like sensory input?

As long as there is a probability for something, a possible exception, as there is for everything in existence, how can it be a fact? Human perception wasn't made to be absolute, it was made to help us survive. If there was more dimensions than our perception sees, as they aren't necessary for survival, then maybe a triangle would have four sides instead of three, but we cannot see it.

I would say that even if the probability of something existing outside of human perception, as measured inside human perception, is very very good, it is never absolute, which is the definition of a fact, and could possibly exist subjectively, with exceptions and differing opinions on its nature as a fact


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinebobbyrox
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Registered: 08/30/04
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Re: Facts and Opinions [Re: Ravus]
    #3457693 - 12/07/04 12:58 AM (12 years, 21 hours ago)



        Facts do exist because every opinion is founded on expressions of experience that are neccessarily recognized as being true (FACTS). THey are NECCESSARILY RECOGNIZED because in order for you to function as an individual within a society and achieve ur potential, u need to know certain principles that dictate logic, as determined by the majority's will. THese principles seek to achieve efficacy. THerefore, as u can see, facts exist for efficacy, which is where most of out TRUTH lies. in effecY.
:stoned:


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Registered: 07/04/04
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Re: Facts and Opinions [Re: Ravus]
    #3458042 - 12/07/04 02:03 AM (12 years, 20 hours ago)

"I don't see how truths of reason do not rely on sensory input just as much of truths of facts do. Let's take your example of a triangle"

If you really want to know then read the link I gave you to Leibniz, or look here.

Your entitled to your own opinion...
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post3276861

You may also find this interesting.

On Absolute Truth
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post2958597


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Facts and Opinions [Re: Ravus]
    #3458061 - 12/07/04 02:07 AM (12 years, 20 hours ago)

Philosophers have often struggled with the problem of subjectivity and objective reality. The is ultimately no way of knowing whether or not objective reality exists, because if it does, it is filtered through perception, which makes our experience of it subjective.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Facts and Opinions [Re: shroomydan]
    #3459844 - 12/07/04 03:27 PM (12 years, 6 hours ago)

I read the entire link on Leibniz, he had rather interesting philosophies, but they are just his subjective opinions nonetheless that I mostly do not agree with. We exist in the best of all possible worlds? In the many worlds theory of quantum physics, we exist in the only universe that we all exist in. If factors changed, we wouldn't exist in this universe. I doubt this is the best of all possible worlds, just the only possible world that we all live in at the current time. As for him thinking God created this world to contain the least amount of evil, that seems to be just blatant stroking of the human ego to me, especially as evil is about as subjective a concept as you can get, yet he tried to apply his philosophy of facts to God and evil

Quote:

The Principle of Contradiction generates the truths of reason, each of which states the connection between an individual substance and one of its finite number of essential features. (Monadology 31) It would be a contradiction to deny any of these propositions, since the substance would not be what it is unless it had all of these features. Truths of reason, then, are not influenced by any contingent fact about the world; they are true "in all possible worlds." Thus, for example, "Garth Kemerling is a human being" would be necessarily true even if my parents had been childless.




I would agree with this to the extent that the features that our perception and observations, and the logic that has accumulated from our total perceptions and observations, will make up the object that we perceive, and if we did not perceive the parts to make up the object the object would not exist, because it would be a different object, or no object at all; but this still makes it subjective.

Leibniz has to assume that there must be facts in his philosophy, for there to be facts in the universe; that is rather undeniable by logic (though subjective it may be,) whether you agree that anything is true or not. We must think that something about our thought is true, otherwise we would not believe it, and Leibniz thought that his philosophies were true, and from that all his other philosophies were justified. I would say that all human statements are just opinions, as they are all based on subjective perception and reasoning and therefore cannot possibly be objective, and therefore all things that humans have analyzed and logically deducted from still have an outcome that is from the subjective point of a human. That too is an opinion, but with what we have discovered from science since Leibniz's time, especially in the functioning of the basic parts of the universe, quantum mechanics, it seems ridiculous to follow a dead philosopher who thought some of his perceptions and deductions were rather absolute

"What is more, every true proposition is a statement of identity whose predicate is wholly contained in its subject, like "2 + 3 = 5." In this sense, all propositions are analytic for Leibniz." And Leibniz's analysis of 2 + 3 = 5, and logical deduction thereof, would make it absolute, or a fact?

I think Nietzsche was on to something more than Leibniz

Quote:

Nietzsche came to connect the Socratic-Platonic faith in reason with the Christian faith in God, who constitutes and guarantees the ultimate truth about the world ("Christianity," he wrote in the preface to Beyond Good and Evil, "is Platonism for the 'people'" [Basic 193]). He claimed that most people need to believe in values that exist independently as a matter of objective fact, values that are binding on everyone and adherence to which is a matter purely of obligation and not of choice.
To such "dogmatic" or "metaphysical" thought Nietzsche opposed his "perspectivism," a view he once expressed by writing that "facts are precisely what there is not, only interpretations" (Will 267). And he believed that the emergence of the possibility of perspectivism was due in part to the fact that Christianity had provided its very own undermining. This is the sense of his notorious dictum, "God is dead" (Gay 181). By this he meant that faith in God, which involves a total commitment to truthfulness, finally has led to the gradually emerging realization that God does not exist after all and that therefore there can be no objective, absolute values.
What we take as facts or absolute values, Nietzsche believes, are in reality earlier interpretations that have succeeded in effacing their interpretive, and therefore partial and nonbinding, character. This is particularly true of the moral values associated with Christianity. Such values make universal demands, but they were in fact created through what, in essay 1, section 7, of The Genealogy of Morals, Nietzsche calls "the slave revolt in morality" (Basic 47) and have been designed to make life tolerable for the large mass of people, to whom he often refers as "the herd."



http://www.press.jhu.edu/books/hopkins_guide_to_literary_theory/friedrich_nietzsche.html


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Facts and Opinions [Re: Ravus]
    #3461930 - 12/07/04 11:19 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I don't like much of what Leibniz had to say either; his system ends in determinism, however, I think he had the part about truths of reason and truths of fact right. Facts require a frame of reference in space and time, whereas truths of reason are timeless.
It is a subtle distinction which is easy to miss, and Leibniz was not the last thinker in this debate.

The math example is interesting.

Leibniz says that proposition 2+3=5 is analytical, a priori, and therefore a truth of reason. He says it is analytical because the predicate 5 is contained in the subjects 2, 3, and +; there is no new information contained in the predicate 5; it is merely a restatement, an analysis, of the subject. This means that 2+3=5 is not a fact; it is an analytical a priori truth of reason.

Emanuel Kant (Ah! the great Kant) who came after him agreed about the truths of fact/truths of reason thing, but disagreed about the analytical nature of mathematical propositions. In his example from "Critique of Pure Reason" he used 7+5=12. Kant does not see this to be an analytical proposition. No matter how much you analyze seven, five, and plus, you will never arrive at twelve; a piece is missing which is needed to link the concepts in the subject together to make twelve. Kant called this missing link intuition which exists a priori in the mind of the thinker.

Consequently he asserted that mathematical propositions are "synthetic a priori propositions". They are a synthesis of the terms in the predicate with the intuition of the subject. It is this concept (synthetic a prior propositions) which is at the heart of his philosophy.

Leibniz leads to Kant, and the work of Kant is the groundwork upon which the systems of Hegel, Nietzsche, and Marx are founded.

The important distinction that Leibniz and those after him made regarding truths of fact and truths of reason is that truths of fact are a posteriori propositions, while truths of reason are a priori.

Facts are always synthetic propositions.

Truths of reason are always analytical according to Leibniz, and can be either analytical or synthetic according to Kant.

I'm not sure which one of these guys had it right about the whole math thing.


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