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Offlinelonestar2004
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Jobs???
    #3451185 - 12/05/04 08:35 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

i went to McDonald's today and in the kids sections was an automated machine to place orders. my kids placed the order and paid right there in the kids section. in the last few years automated systems are everywhere here in Texas. libraries, book stores, ATM, gas, home depot, walmart and my grocery store is almost completely automated. And this is just the beginning!!!!! everywhere i look i can see a machine doing the job a human is doing for cheaper and better... what jobs are being created to fill all the jobs that are going to be lost! i think other people are stating to see this and that is what is causing alot of anger. usa-euro dems- repubs

sorry to sound like doom and gloom but there are going to be some serious job losses to machines in the future and i have no idea what can be done.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleKrishna
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Registered: 05/08/03
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Re: Jobs??? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3451274 - 12/05/04 08:54 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

i agree that this is a potentially huge problem in the brewing. especially if we continue with the current stratification of wealth and ownership, this problem is going to mean cheaper costs for corporations - thus more profit - and a loss of "blue-collar" jobs - thus poverty for millions. one way i could see a solution to this (other than just giving up on technology and moving back to the land) would be more community-based ownership of industries/resources. if instead of firing people that aren't needed because of machines, we decided - more machines means everybody needs to work less, as long as we all split the profits - then this might be the begining of an age where man is no longer a slave to "labour."

there is a really interesting discussion on this topic in the book "The Human Condition" by Hannah Arendt. I highly recommend checking it out...


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Anonymous

Re: Jobs??? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3451302 - 12/05/04 08:59 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

sorry to sound like doom and gloom but there are going to be some serious job losses to machines in the future and i have no idea what can be done.

this idea has been around for quite a while. don't worry about it. things don't work that way.


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Jobs??? [Re: ]
    #3451357 - 12/05/04 09:11 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

ive been searching for work for almost a year now.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Anonymous

Re: Jobs??? [Re: BleaK]
    #3451380 - 12/05/04 09:16 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

alright... right now we have machines that do labor that would take trillions of people to do, and yet, we are better off for having them.


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Jobs??? [Re: ]
    #3451427 - 12/05/04 09:25 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
we are better off for having them.




we in the affluent world. what about the 3rd world? i'm certainly not anti-technology... but i do believe that the benefit of technology has not been shared evenly.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Registered: 09/05/04
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Re: Jobs??? [Re: ]
    #3451440 - 12/05/04 09:27 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


sorry to sound like doom and gloom but there are going to be some serious job losses to machines in the future and i have no idea what can be done.





That belief has been around for over a hundred years. All the luddites in Europe helped the USA take the lead in technology and industry.


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Anonymous

Re: Jobs??? [Re: Krishna]
    #3451452 - 12/05/04 09:30 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

we in the affluent world. what about the 3rd world?

it's a lack of technology that's causing their problems.


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Jobs??? [Re: ]
    #3451499 - 12/05/04 09:39 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

but in our plans to "develop" them, we fail to look at numerous variables. take, for example, the building of large dams in india to generate power. now the claim from the neo-liberal globalisation side of it all is that this development will allow India to become a part of the industrialised world, that only through this development will India be able to solve her problems, etc. However, they brush aside the tens of thousands of farmers who will have to relocate themselves, because their traditional farm-lands are going to be flooded in the creation of this dam. They brush aside the fact that the vast majority of the power generated by the dam will go to support operations by Multi-National corporations - operations that, for the most part, will not "give back" to the community in which they operate. Sure, they'll offer some jobs. And perhaps a meager existence is better than starvation, yeah? But what about the huge profits that they make? Now I'm not saying that India should stay in its old traditions completely - I'm just saying that the development has to come from within the country - and not be imposed upon the country. When it is imposed, it often serves the interests of the West more than it does the interest of the people of that country.

definitely, the development of a place like India has had some positives - there is a new "middle-class" of people (mostly from the surge in IT). however, poverty is also at new records. the number of people living in the slums of every major city is at new records. and there is a new phenomenon of scores of farmers commiting suicide as a form of protest.

technology certainly has the power to solve a lot of the problems facing the 3rd world. my view, however, is that if this technology is merely used as a tool to increase the profits of MNCs - as a tool in neo-liberal globalisation, then it is not going to benefit the majority of the people.


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Anonymous

Re: Jobs??? [Re: Krishna]
    #3451604 - 12/05/04 09:57 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

further stratification of wealth, environmental destruction, loss of the ancient ways of life and culture, temporary unemployment, and diminished self-reliance are all pretty complicated issues and you certainly have a point here.

what i was addressing was the general sentiment that machines are putting people out of work and make it generally harder to find jobs. this idea has been around for a while and is pretty thoroughly discredited.


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OfflineBleaK
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Registered: 06/24/02
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Re: Jobs??? [Re: ]
    #3451625 - 12/05/04 10:01 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
what i was addressing was the general sentiment that machines are putting people out of work and make it generally harder to find jobs. this idea has been around for a while and is pretty thoroughly discredited.




and equally credited.

when will people adress the issues of overpopulation?
i live unerdeath 3 other people, and share a walls with 2 others.

not to mention there is no space left near me to farm.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Jobs??? [Re: ]
    #3451632 - 12/05/04 10:04 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

i agree this has happened throughout history. agriculture lost jobs to machines. but then the industrial revolution replaced the jobs. then machines took the industrial jobs and service jobs replaced them. and now i see all these service jobs going and i do not see anything replacing them.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 6 years, 26 days
Re: Jobs??? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3451664 - 12/05/04 10:09 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

i am anti-socialism. and when i see a young homeless man asking for money standing right in front of a help wanted sign it upsets me. but what if there are no more McDonald's jobs?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
Re: Jobs??? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3451684 - 12/05/04 10:12 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
i am anti-socialism. and when i see a young homeless man asking for money standing right in front of a help wanted sign it upsets me. but what if there are no more McDonald's jobs?




firs off, mcdonalds wouldnt hire a homeless guy. they look for a specific demeanor.
ive applied there.
they dont like longhairs for one thing.
second, when have u seen a help wanted sign recently?
ive seen TWO in the last 5 months.

neither place hired me.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Jobs??? [Re: ]
    #3451696 - 12/05/04 10:15 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

OK - i think i see what you mean. For example, today we have far more machines working in factories. Initially, this meant that many factory workers lost their jobs. However, after society has had time to cope with this, we train less factory workers, and we train more technicians to monitor/build/fix the machines that do the jobs that people used to. Instead of jobs being lost, the job markets are just changed. However, I think this overlooks an algebraic fact. The point of technology is to make more work capable by less people. Instead of having 100 workers, you need 5 technicians to service the machines, and that's it. Now this has the obvious human consequence for those 95 workers who are too old or whatever to be able to learn a new skill (a read of The Grapes of Wrath by Steinbeck gives a very enthralling picture of this human consequence). But, this has another consequence, perhaps a more hidden one. That percentage of society that is no longer needed in one sector is going to have to move to another sector. And if all of the sectors undergo this "streamlining" by increasing technological development, then all of the sectors will require less and less human work-force. Now people aren't going to be able to just "stop working" - so what happens? We create new sectors. We invent new technologies, etc. And, because of the market-nature of our societies - we have to create a force to buy these new products. Basically, not only do we create things that we do not need, but we also create a need for these things. It's an ever-growing cycle - the more technology we have, the less man-power necessary, thus more technological development we make, thus less man-power necessary, etc etc etc. A spiral, growing larger with each turn. And, the earth is - inherently - a closed system. A constant spiral of development leading to more consumption leading to more development leading to more consumption - will eventually devour the finite resources of our earth...

I don't mean to make this out as a "doomsday" scenario, i just wanted to raise another possible effect of the "industrialistion" of society...


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Jobs??? [Re: Krishna]
    #3451716 - 12/05/04 10:18 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Jobs??? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3451758 - 12/05/04 10:27 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

This was first published in 1848.

Quote:

"A curse on machines! Every year, their increasing power devotes millions of workmen to pauperism, by depriving them of work, and therefore of wages and bread. A curse on machines!"

This is the cry which is raised by vulgar prejudice, and echoed in the journals.

But to curse machines, is to curse the spirit of humanity!

It puzzles me to conceive how any man can feel any satisfaction in such a doctrine.

For, if true, what is its inevitable consequence? That there is no activity, prosperity, wealth, or happiness possible for any people, except for those who are stupid and inert, and to whom God has not granted the fatal gift of knowing how to think, to observe, to combine, to invent, and to obtain the greatest results with the smallest means. On the contrary, rags, mean huts, poverty, and inanition, are the inevitable lot of every nation which seeks and finds in iron, fire, wind, electricity, magnetism, the laws of chemistry and mechanics, in a word, in the powers of nature, an assistance to its natural powers. We might as well say with Rousseau -"Every man that thinks is a depraved animal."

This is not all; if this doctrine is true, since all men think and invent, since all, from first to last, and at every moment of their existence, seek the cooperation of the powers of nature, and try to make the most of a little, by reducing either the work of their hands, or their expenses, so as to obtain the greatest possible amount of gratification with the smallest possible amount of labour, it must follow, as a matter of course, that the whole of mankind is rushing towards its decline, by the same mental aspiration towards progress, which torments each of its members.

Hence, it ought to be made known, by statistics, that the inhabitants of Lancashire, abandoning that land of machines, seek for work in Ireland, where they are unknown; and, by history, that barbarism darkens the epochs of civilization, and that civilization shaies in times of ignorance and barbarism.

There is evidently in this mass of contradictions something which revolts us, and which leads us to suspect that the problem contains within it an element of solution which has not been sufficiently disengaged.

Here is the whole mystery: behind that which is seen, lies something which is not seen. I will endeavour to bring it to light. The demonstration I shall give will only be a repetition of the preceding one, for the problems are one and the same.

Men have a natural propensity to make the best bargain they can, when not prevented by an opposing force; that is, they like to obtain as much as they possibly can for their labour, whether the advantage is obtained from a foreign producer, or a skillful mechanical producer.

The theoretical objection which is made to this propensity is the same in both cases. In each case it is reproached with the apparent inactivity which it causes to labour. Now, labour rendered available, not inactive, is the very thing which determines it. And, therefore, in both cases, the same practical obstacle -force, is opposed to it also. The legislator prohibits foreign competition, and forbids mechanical competition. For what other means can exist for arresting a propensity which is natural to all men, but that of depriving them of their liberty?

In many countries, it is true, the legislator strikes at only one of these competitions, and confines himself to grumbling at the other. This only proves one thing, that is, that the legislator is inconsistent.

Harm Of False Premise

We need not be surprised at this. On a wrong road, inconsistency is inevitable; if it were not so, mankind would be sacrificed. A false principle never has been, and never will be, carried out to the end.

Now for our demonstration, which shall not be a long one.

James B. had two francs which he had gained by two workmen; but it occurs to him, that an arrangement of ropes and weights might be made which would diminish the labour by half. Thus he obtains the same advantage, saves a franc, and discharges a workman.

He discharges a workman: this is that which is seen.

And seeing this only, it is said, "See how misery attends civilization; this is the way that liberty is fatal to equality. The human mind has made a conquest, and immediately a workman is cast into the gulf of pauperism. James B. may possibly employ the two workmen, but then he will give them only half their wages for they will compete with each other, and offer themselves at the lowest price. Thus the rich are always growing richer, and the poor, poorer. Society wants remodelling." A very fine conclusion, and worthy of the preamble.

Happily, preamble and conclusion are both false, because, behind the half of the phenomenon which is seen, lies the other half which is not seen.

The franc saved by James B. is not seen, no more are the necessary effects of this saving.

Since, in consequence of his invention, James B. spends only one franc on hand labour in the pursuit of a determined advantage, another franc remains to him.

If, then, there is in the world a workman with unemployed arms, there is also in the world a capitalist with an unemployed franc. These two elements meet and combine, and it is as clear as daylight, that between the supply and demand of labour, and between the supply and demand of wages, the relation is in no way changed.

The invention and the workman paid with the first franc, now perform the work which was formerly accomplished by two workmen. The second workman, paid with the second franc, realizes a new kind of work.

What is the change, then, which has taken place? An additional national advantage has been gained; in other words, the invention is a gratuitous triumph -a gratuitous profit for mankind.

From the form which I have given to my demonstration, the following inference might be drawn: -"It is the capitalist who reaps all the advantage from machinery. The working class, if it suffers only temporarily, never profits by it, since, by your own showing, they displace a portion of the national labour, without diminishing it, it is true, but also without increasing it."

I do not pretend, in this slight treatise, to answer every objection; the only end I have in view, is to combat a vulgar, widely spread, and dangerous prejudice. I want to prove, that a new machine only causes the discharge of a certain number of hands, when the remuneration which pays them as abstracted by force. These hands, and this remuneration, would combine to produce what it was impossible to produce before the invention; whence it follows that the final result is an increase of advantages for equal labour.

Who is the gainer by these additional advantages?

First, it is true, the capitalist, the inventor; the first who succeeds in using the machine; and this is the reward of his genius and his courage. In this case, as we have just seen, he effects a saving upon the expense of production, which, in whatever way it may be spent (and it always is spent), employs exactly as many hands as the machine caused to be dismissed.

But soon competition obliges him to lower his prices in proportion to the saving itself; and then it is no longer the inventor who reaps the benefit of the invention -it is the purchaser of what is produced, the consumer, the public, including the workmen; in a word, mankind.

And that which is not seen is, that the saving thus procured for all consumers creates a fund whence wages may be supplied, and which replaces that which the machine has exhausted.

Thus, to recur to the forementioned example, James B. obtains a profit by spending two francs in wages. Thanks to his invention, the hand labour costs him only one franc. So long as he sells the thing produced at the same price, he employs one workman less in producing this particular thing, and that is what is seen; but there is an additional workman employed by the franc which James B. has saved. This is that which is not seen.

When, by the natural progress of things, James B. is obliged to lower the price of the thing produced by one franc, then he no longer realizes a saving; then he has no longer a franc to dispose of, to procure for the national labour a new production; but then another gainer takes his place, and this gainer is mankind. Whoever buys the thing he has produced, pays a franc less, and necessarily adds this saving to the fund of wages; and this, again, is what is not seen.

Another solution, founded upon facts, has been given of this problem of machinery.

It was said, machinery reduces the expense of production, and lowers the price of the thing produced. The reduction of the profit causes an increase of consumption, which necessitates an increase of production, and, finally, the introduction of as many workmen, or more, after the invention as were necessary before it. As a proof of this, printing, weaving, &c., are instanced.

This demonstration is not a scientific one. It would lead us to conclude, that if the consumption of the particular production of which we are speaking remains stationary, or nearly so, machinery must injure labour. This is not the case.

Suppose that in a certain country all the people wore hats; if, by machinery, the price could be reduced half, it would not necessarily follow that the consumption would be doubled.

Would you say, that in this case a portion of the national labour had been paralyzed? Yes, according to the vulgar demonstration; but, according to mine, No; for even if not a single hat more should be bought in the country, the entire fund of wages would not be the less secure. That which failed to go to the hat-making trade would be found to have gone to the economy realized by all the consumers, and would thence serve to pay for all the labour which the machine had rendered useless, and to excite a new development of all the trades. And thus it is that things go on. I have known newspapers to cost eighty francs, now we pay forty-eight: here is a saving of thirty-two francs to the subscribers. It is not certain, or, at least, necessary, that the thirtytwo francs should take the direction of the journalist trade; but it is certain, and necessary too, that if they do not take this direction they will take another. One makes use of them for taking in more newspapers; another, to get better living; another, better clothes; another, better furniture. It is thus that the trades are bound together. They form a vast whole, whose different parts communicate by secret canals; what is saved by one, profits all. It is very important for us to understand, that savings never take place at the expense of labour and wares.




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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


Edited by z@z.com (12/05/04 10:29 PM)


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Jobs??? [Re: z@z.com]
    #3451810 - 12/05/04 10:40 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

who wrote that, Z?


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Jobs??? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3451839 - 12/05/04 10:46 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
i agree this has happened throughout history. agriculture lost jobs to machines. but then the industrial revolution replaced the jobs. then machines took the industrial jobs and service jobs replaced them. and now i see all these service jobs going and i do not see anything replacing them.




Tech jobs?


--------------------


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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: Jobs??? [Re: Krishna]
    #3451842 - 12/05/04 10:46 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Krishna said:
who wrote that, Z?



Bastiat.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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