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OfflineAlan Stone
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Non-choice and its implications
    #3450586 - 12/05/04 05:20 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

This is primarily addressed to those who do not believe in free choice, but others can pitch in if they feel like it (if their interest has been caused by rather obscure cosmic circumstances :laugh: )

If there is no such thing as free choice, what basis is there for morality? If no one is responsible for their actions (since they did not cause them), how can any action be judged in a judicial context?

If choice doesn't exist, what basis is there for democracy? If every voter is pre-destined to vote a certain way by their general circumstances, isn't it an illusion to speak of 'casting your vote'? Wouldn't you technically be casting the universe's vote?

If choice does not exist, why would we be such a communicative species? If you're not doing any deciding, what's the use in discussing matters, or trying to persuade others?

If choice does not exist, isn't life pointless? If we're automatons (as you would have us believe), nothing you do can matter, since you had nothing to say in the matter. What's more, the value you assign to events in your life is an illusion, because there is no "I" to decide. Correct?


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Non-choice and its implications [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3450592 - 12/05/04 05:23 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I vote for free choice as opposed to purely free will or predetermination. Free choice is sort of a compromise of the other two.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineAstrojax
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Re: Non-choice and its implications [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3451170 - 12/05/04 08:32 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Free choice may be an illusion, but it is a particularly convincing one. No killer is going to get off by explaining what things lead him to choose to kill. It's part of being responsible for your own actions, even if you can logically argue that all your actions are predetermined by an ordered universe. So what?


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Non-choice and its implications [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3451197 - 12/05/04 08:38 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Do I have a free will?




Find out who "I" is.




Does the mind have free will?



Find out whose mind it is.


My mind?


Who is me?

:idea:



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Non-choice and its implications [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3452850 - 12/06/04 02:07 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

*clap, clap, clap*

Excellent post, sir. I tip my hat to you.



pinky


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Non-choice and its implications [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3452890 - 12/06/04 02:20 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I'm a free willer. Even if all of this is a prerocordered script we are acting out here, I think we were the script writers on the the other planes and we do a lot of rewrites as well.

I personally beinve two way scritp writing is going on. say the spirit writes in what it wants to experience here and then the actor can change it "because it has been inspired by the experience for something else", and then sends back a rough draft of the change and then spirit tweeks it and sends in another script.

On some level someone is freely choosing and thinking. Even if it was one original thinker of thoughts and then blew itself into infinite bits to play out the actual experiences of all its thoughts.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Non-choice and its implications [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3454482 - 12/06/04 01:57 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Find out who "I" is.



"I" respect "your" opinion, but in "my" opinion, relating that kind of question to this issue is pointless, since there can be no objective answer. No one has the answers as far as the origins of ego and consciousness are concerned.

Regardless of whether the voice "in your head" is you, everyone could agree that every human being is outlined by their skin, anything within those confines making up the individual.

Quote:

Find out whose mind it is.



Same type of question. If a viper bites someone, they'll be poisoned no matter who owns the snake (if anyone at all). It's not about the snake, it's about finding the antidote for the poison.

Quote:

Who is me?



Why me? :smirk:


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Invisiblechunder
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Re: Non-choice and its implications [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3454562 - 12/06/04 02:15 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

If I pick up my cat, and throw it into the ocean, is that cat exercising free will? One could argue that his mental activity might still be under his control, and that his physical movements might still be under his control, but his free will is limited to actions within the parameters which *I* set up for him by throwing his ass into the ocean.

Free will is some wild stuff, you got any book recommendations AlanStone? I'd like to read more about it, seems like an interesting conundrum.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Non-choice and its implications [Re: chunder]
    #3454579 - 12/06/04 02:19 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

""If I pick up my cat, and throw it into the ocean, is that cat exercising free will? ""

how could you get to pick up the cat in the first place?


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Disclaimer!?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Non-choice and its implications [Re: Gomp]
    #3454588 - 12/06/04 02:21 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

The cat had to choose to be there for you to pick it up and throw it. :p


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Non-choice and its implications [Re: chunder]
    #3454631 - 12/06/04 02:29 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

If I pick up my cat, and throw it into the ocean, is that cat exercising free will? One could argue that his mental activity might still be under his control, and that his physical movements might still be under his control, but his free will is limited to actions within the parameters which *I* set up for him by throwing his ass into the ocean.



I probably should have made the difference between free will and free choice clear. Free will seems to be understood by most as the ability to do whatever you please, the laws of the universe be damned. Free choice is the 'real' alternative, meaning you choose from among (seemingly) realistic options at the time the choice is made.
You cat example wouldn't be elegible for free choice, unless it realises what you're about to do. Then - assuming it had the same level of consciousness as we do - it can choose to hold on to your arm/sleeve with its claws OR decide it's as good a day to die as any.

Quote:

Free will is some wild stuff, you got any book recommendations AlanStone? I'd like to read more about it, seems like an interesting conundrum.



Those were my own words. I'm not well read into the issue, so I'm afraid I cannot offer any literary advice. :crazy:


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Non-choice and its implications [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3454634 - 12/06/04 02:29 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

but the cat newer choose to be born in the first place?
yet it could chose to walk there not here, and you could pick it up?

love this!


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Disclaimer!?


Edited by Gomp (12/06/04 02:30 PM)


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Invisiblechunder
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Re: Non-choice and its implications [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3454670 - 12/06/04 02:37 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I see, thanks for the clarification dude!


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Non-choice and its implications [Re: Gomp]
    #3454707 - 12/06/04 02:47 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Free will would dictate that the cat did choose to be born. If it didn't there would not be free will.

Or , to make it easier to understand, something chose to be a cat in this free will realm.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (12/06/04 02:50 PM)


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Non-choice and its implications [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3454814 - 12/06/04 03:10 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

free will or no free will

pizza fucking rocks


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