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InvisibleKrishna
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Evidence, Mr. Ambassador?
    #3450503 - 12/05/04 04:55 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Naomi Klein responds to accusations by the US ambassador to the UK regarding an article she wrote...

Quote:


Evidence, Mr. Ambassador?


David T Johnson,
Acting ambassador,
US Embassy, London


Dear Mr Johnson, On November 26, your press counsellor sent a letter to the Guardian taking strong exception to a sentence in my column of the same day. The sentence read: "In Iraq, US forces and their Iraqi surrogates are no longer bothering to conceal attacks on civilian targets and are openly eliminating anyone - doctors, clerics, journalists - who dares to count the bodies." Of particular concern was the word "eliminating".

The letter suggested that my charge was "baseless" and asked the Guardian either to withdraw it, or provide "evidence of this extremely grave accusation". It is quite rare for US embassy officials to openly involve themselves in the free press of a foreign country, so I took the letter extremely seriously. But while I agree that the accusation is grave, I have no intention of withdrawing it. Here, instead, is the evidence you requested.

In April, US forces laid siege to Falluja in retaliation for the gruesome killings of four Blackwater employees. The operation was a failure, with US troops eventually handing the city back to resistance forces. The reason for the withdrawal was that the siege had sparked uprisings across the country, triggered by reports that hundreds of civilians had been killed. This information came from three main sources: 1) Doctors. USA Today reported on April 11 that "Statistics and names of the dead were gathered from four main clinics around the city and from Falluja general hospital". 2) Arab TV journalists. While doctors reported the numbers of dead, it was al-Jazeera and al-Arabiya that put a human face on those statistics. With unembedded camera crews in Falluja, both networks beamed footage of mutilated women and children throughout Iraq and the Arab-speaking world. 3) Clerics. The reports of high civilian casualties coming from journalists and doctors were seized upon by prominent clerics in Iraq. Many delivered fiery sermons condemning the attack, turning their congregants against US forces and igniting the uprising that forced US troops to withdraw.

US authorities have denied that hundreds of civilians were killed during last April's siege, and have lashed out at the sources of these reports. For instance, an unnamed "senior American officer", speaking to the New York Times last month, labelled Falluja general hospital "a centre of propaganda". But the strongest words were reserved for Arab TV networks. When asked about al-Jazeera and al-Arabiya's reports that hundreds of civilians had been killed in Falluja, Donald Rumsfeld, the US secretary of defence, replied that "what al-Jazeera is doing is vicious, inaccurate and inexcusable ... " Last month, US troops once again laid siege to Falluja - but this time the attack included a new tactic: eliminating the doctors, journalists and clerics who focused public attention on civilian casualties last time around.


Eliminating doctors
The first major operation by US marines and Iraqi soldiers was to storm Falluja general hospital, arresting doctors and placing the facility under military control. The New York Times reported that "the hospital was selected as an early target because the American military believed that it was the source of rumours about heavy casual ties", noting that "this time around, the American military intends to fight its own information war, countering or squelching what has been one of the insurgents' most potent weapons". The Los Angeles Times quoted a doctor as saying that the soldiers "stole the mobile phones" at the hospital - preventing doctors from communicating with the outside world.

But this was not the worst of the attacks on health workers. Two days earlier, a crucial emergency health clinic was bombed to rubble, as well as a medical supplies dispensary next door. Dr Sami al-Jumaili, who was working in the clinic, says the bombs took the lives of 15 medics, four nurses and 35 patients. The Los Angeles Times reported that the manager of Falluja general hospital "had told a US general the location of the downtown makeshift medical centre" before it was hit.

Whether the clinic was targeted or destroyed accidentally, the effect was the same: to eliminate many of Falluja's doctors from the war zone. As Dr Jumaili told the Independent on November 14: "There is not a single surgeon in Falluja." When fighting moved to Mosul, a similar tactic was used: on entering the city, US and Iraqi forces immediately seized control of the al-Zaharawi hospital.


Eliminating journalists
The images from last month's siege on Falluja came almost exclusively from reporters embedded with US troops. This is because Arab journalists who had covered April's siege from the civilian perspective had effectively been eliminated. Al-Jazeera had no cameras on the ground because it has been banned from reporting in Iraq indefinitely. Al-Arabiya did have an unembedded reporter, Abdel Kader Al-Saadi, in Falluja, but on November 11 US forces arrested him and held him for the length of the siege. Al-Saadi's detention has been condemned by Reporters Without Borders and the International Federation of Journalists. "We cannot ignore the possibility that he is being intimidated for just trying to do his job," the IFJ stated.

It's not the first time journalists in Iraq have faced this kind of intimidation. When US forces invaded Baghdad in April 2003, US Central Command urged all unembedded journalists to leave the city. Some insisted on staying and at least three paid with their lives. On April 8, a US aircraft bombed al-Jazeera's Baghdad offices, killing reporter Tareq Ayyoub. Al-Jazeera has documentation proving it gave the coordinates of its location to US forces.

On the same day, a US tank fired on the Palestine hotel, killing Jos? Couso, of the Spanish network Telecinco, and Taras Protsiuk, of Reuters. Three US soldiers are facing a criminal lawsuit from Couso's family, which alleges that US forces were well aware that journalists were in the Palestine hotel and that they committed a war crime.


Eliminating clerics
Just as doctors and journalists have been targeted, so too have many of the clerics who have spoken out forcefully against the killings in Falluja. On November 11, Sheik Mahdi al-Sumaidaei, the head of the Supreme Association for Guidance and Daawa, was arrested. According to Associated Press, "Al-Sumaidaei has called on the country's Sunni minority to launch a civil disobedience campaign if the Iraqi government does not halt the attack on Falluja". On November 19, AP reported that US and Iraqi forces stormed a prominent Sunni mosque, the Abu Hanifa, in Aadhamiya, killing three people and arresting 40, including the chief cleric - another opponent of the Falluja siege. On the same day, Fox News reported that "US troops also raided a Sunni mosque in Qaim, near the Syrian border". The report described the arrests as "retaliation for opposing the Falluja offensive". Two Shia clerics associated with Moqtada al-Sadr have also been arrested in recent weeks; according to AP, "both had spoken out against the Falluja attack".

"We don't do body counts," said General Tommy Franks of US Central Command. The question is: what happens to the people who insist on counting the bodies - the doctors who must pronounce their patients dead, the journalists who document these losses, the clerics who denounce them? In Iraq, evidence is mounting that these voices are being systematically silenced through a variety of means, from mass arrests, to raids on hospitals, media bans, and overt and unexplained physical attacks.

Mr Ambassador, I believe that your government and its Iraqi surrogates are waging two wars in Iraq. One war is against the Iraqi people, and it has claimed an estimated 100,000 lives. The other is a war on witnesses.

? Additional research by Aaron Mat?





from: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=6801

Naomi Klein's website: http://www.nologo.org


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Evidence, Mr. Ambassador? [Re: Krishna]
    #3450971 - 12/05/04 07:29 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Krishna, my friend, this is utter crap. First let us discuss the meaning of the word eliminate. I would normally presuppose in a wartime situation that this means kill. Apparently, she doesn't actually mean this. She means something else. The exact specifics of what she means remain unclear.

She then goes on to quote the NYTimes, (Guardian West) as a source when in fact they were opining about the reasons why the hospital was taken first. I don't know who Dr Jumaili is, but just because he says something doesn't make it so. He could have been Saddam's #3 torturer. Who knows. He may have his own insurgent agenda. Is it inconceivable that he could be a propogandist? No.

The journalists who were eliminated? From al Jazeera, no one was allowed . From al Arabiyah one reporter was prevented from going there for the siege. The others, collateral damage. "US forces urged all to leave, some insisted on staying". So sorry, bye. Reporters in war zones are killed all the time. There is no evidence whatsoever that they were targeted. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. Do these people think that when they have been warned to leave they can simply tell the army where they are and that safeguards their position. Please. When they say get out, it means get out. It doesn't seem to have fallen disproportionately on Arabs and they still have reporters in Iraq, they just didn't have any in Fallujah while the fight was going on. Maybe they were being held for their own protection, eh?

The eliminated clerics? I have no problem putting the enemy in prison. Most clerics are free to speak as long as they don't espouse violent attacks. We let al Sadr go on with his shit for too long. It was a mistake. We won't make that mistake again.

And finally we come yet again to the nonsensical "100,000" figure. This has been exposed on this forum as bunk from a discredited Lancet story with fraudulent methodology (actual study results were that there was a 95% chance that civilian deaths fell between 14,000 and 200,000 (or something close to that). Please, it was a farce. Not to mention crap.

Just what does she mean by "eliminate" anyway?


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: Evidence, Mr. Ambassador? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3451040 - 12/05/04 07:57 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)



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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Evidence, Mr. Ambassador? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3451044 - 12/05/04 07:59 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

well i will agree with you on the point that her use of the word "eliminate" is vague, at best. she seems to mean, to my reading of the article, "stifle their public voice" more than "kill" - perhaps instead of eliminate she might have used incapacitate? anyway, moving onwards...

On the doctors - I agree that her sources certainly don't seal the case shut. She admits it herself - "Whether the clinic was targeted or destroyed accidentally." However, I believe her basic point is valid - that the US military is not protecting hospitals. Perhaps it simply isn't possible to protect these hospitals? I don't know - I'm not really a "military man" - but then we must ask two questions. Firstly, if our "smart weapons" technology is so great and advanced, why do we keep hitting buildings that the US military is given the specific coordinates of? Either our technology isn't as advanced as we claim, or no precautions are made to not hit those buildings (or is there a third option that I don't see?). Secondly, if we want to "turn" this war over to the Iraqi people, then why do we take control of their hospitals? The war-time hospital is a place where the human cost of war cannot be brushed under the table - is that why they are so dangerous? To the american people, the human cost of this war can be cloudy and distant (unless a family member dies in the service). To Iraqi doctors - who have presumably taken the Hypocratic oath - the human cost cannot be discounted. But I do agree to your point that her sources most probably have their agenda.

On the journalists - the main problem that I see here is the fact that al-Jazeera has been banned from reporting in Iraq. No matter what we think of al-Jazeera, it is a major news source in the Islamic world - and to completely ban them (not to mention bomb their Baghdad headquarters!) is simply at odds with our alleged agenda of "freedom-bringing." Shouldn't this freedom include the right to present alternate viewpoints on this conflict? I don't buy the US military explanation that al-Jazeera is encouraging insurgents, and thus needs to be silenced for the time-being. I certainly believe the al-Jazeera is biased, etc - but I also believe in their right to report from Iraq. As well, the arrest of Abdel Kader Al-Saadi is absurd in my opinion. OK - I agree with you that the US military can't assure the safety of any reporters inside a warzone. But to me, the heavy reliance on "embedded" journalists, and the offical standpoint of literally banning non-embedded journalists - reeks of propaganda purposes.

On the clerics - well... this is a difficult issue. If we truly want to bring "freedom" to the Iraqi people, then shouldn't this include the "freedom" to speak out against our actions there? Or will that freedom only come later, after other freedoms have been secured? I guess it's an ideological question. There's that quote - "those who would give up some of their liberties to ensure their safety are deserving of neither" (or something along those lines... but it's Benjamin Franklin, if I'm not mistaken).

But yes, I definitely agree, her use of the word "eliminate" is very questionable...


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Evidence, Mr. Ambassador? [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3451060 - 12/05/04 08:03 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Great_Satan - I would ask that you not post random-ass links in a serious thread that I have started. If you disagree with the points that I raise, then take a cue from Zappaisgod and actually use intelligent discourse. I'm more than willing to discuss any issue with anybody on this forum. I do not think any web-pages relating to islam being evil have any relevance to Ms. Klein's article, or any discussion about the points raised in her article. If you want to post your links, please create a thread (perhaps entitled "Random-Ass Links About Why Islam Sucks") of your own to do so. Thanks...


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: Evidence, Mr. Ambassador? [Re: Krishna]
    #3451074 - 12/05/04 08:07 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Did you read all of them carefully? Militant Islam is a very serious threat to the world.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Evidence, Mr. Ambassador? [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3451084 - 12/05/04 08:12 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Please stop.


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Evidence, Mr. Ambassador? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3451138 - 12/05/04 08:26 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

zappa (or anybody else, for that matter) - do you think that we can justify squelching anti-American opinion for the time being, on the grounds that allowing these opinions to be broadcasted would only fuel more insurgency? that in order to insure their future freedoms, we have to limit them now?

also - how do you think this action (for example, banning al-Jazeera from Iraq) will effect western/islamic relations? do you think the risk of further increasing the opinion that the US is acting out of its personal economic interests is a necessary risk to take?


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: Evidence, Mr. Ambassador? [Re: Krishna]
    #3451164 - 12/05/04 08:31 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

As we've seen 99% of criticism against the USA in this forum is based on lies and irrational hatred. The ones who contribute to hating America will only lead us to more war which results in the vicious cycle repeating itself until all of America's enemies are dead along with civilians that the enemies were hiding behind. Krishna, you are a hypocrit. You are an American and yet bash your own country constantly. You are sick.


Edited by Great_Satan (12/05/04 08:33 PM)


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Evidence, Mr. Ambassador? [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3451246 - 12/05/04 08:48 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

We all see what we want to. If I read Zmag I'm sure I would believe that US troops are really Nazi SS too.


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Evidence, Mr. Ambassador? [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3451247 - 12/05/04 08:49 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Great_Satan said:
As we've seen 99% of criticism against the USA in this forum is based on lies and irrational hatred




source for that, please? i don't recall ever using lies or irrational hatred in my criticism of the USA.

Quote:


The ones who contribute to hating America will only lead us to more war which results in the vicious cycle repeating itself until all of America's enemies are dead along with civilians that the enemies were hiding behind




well, that's your opinion. my opinion is that you can never use violence and hatred to end violence and hatred... it's only going to result in more violence and hatred.

Quote:


Krishna, you are a hypocrit.  You are an American and yet bash your own country constantly.




How is being an American and yet questioning/criticizing the actions of the American gov't hypocritical? A hypocrite, as far as I know, is somebody who does one thing and says the opposite. As an American citizen, I feel a deep sense of responsibility for the actions of my gov't. And when these actions, in my view, amount to basically the rape and pillage of the 3rd world, en masse, I view it as my civic duty to call the horrendous nature of these actions into account.


Quote:


You are sick.





You know, I thought I was coming down with the flu - the glands in my throat were getting all swollen, but now they seem to be back to normal. Thanks for taking an interest in my health, though. :smile:


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Evidence, Mr. Ambassador? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3451605 - 12/05/04 09:57 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
We all see what we want to. If I read Zmag I'm sure I would believe that US troops are really Nazi SS too.




Well, I do readily admit that Zmag has a certain bias to the articles it collects on its website. The entire organization is, by its own words, anti-Capitalist. I can assure you that this is certainly not my only source of news - I read a variety of newspapers daily. However, I do find that many of the commentaries on Zmag offer a different perspective on many global-issues. Whereas the vast majority of the Western press takes a Capitalist ideology as a given and necessity, many of the writers for Zmag do not make such an assumption - and I think it can paint a very different picture of world events.

Anyhow, the fact still remains - the US has banned al-Jazeera from reporting from inside Iraq. The US has taken direct military action against clerics who denounce their activities in Iraq, and one might speculate that they have taken military action against press-affiliates who do the same. My previous question remains unanswered - and undiscussed.

Quote:


do you think that we can justify squelching anti-American opinion for the time being, on the grounds that allowing these opinions to be broadcasted would only fuel more insurgency? that in order to insure their future freedoms, we have to limit them now?

also - how do you think this action (for example, banning al-Jazeera from Iraq) will effect western/islamic relations? do you think the risk of further increasing the opinion that the US is acting out of its personal economic interests is a necessary risk to take?





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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Evidence, Mr. Ambassador? [Re: Krishna]
    #3451922 - 12/05/04 11:02 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

the new york times called al jazeera fair and balanced. i loved that.

Krishna, i understand what you are saying. but i want to get out as fast as possible. the Iraq's have elections coming up and we can take a break from all there negative coverage for awhile. (time-out)


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Evidence, Mr. Ambassador? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3452053 - 12/05/04 11:36 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Well I didn't even know that Al-Jazeera was banned! That is rediculous. Yes, they might insite some anger and cause more insurgents, but that's because people don't like being invaded! Saddam is GONE already. Let people see what's really going on.

We FORCE people to believe that us instilling a democracy is the best idea, and we cover up ANY information that might make people think otherwise. We're so afraid of being wrong that we're censoring the only other voices, and that's terrible.

Insurgents are going to happen in war. That's the price you pay for invading a country. But to deny the only major non-western broadcaster from reporting in their OWN HOMELAND is rediculous. How would you feel if Iraq invaded us and banned CNN/Fox News (on the principle of censorship..not how much you hate either of those stations).

That is twisted. Could you maybe post some info about that? I didn't even know al-Jazeera was banned from reporting.

I'm not sure on the other of those two points. Hazy at best I would say, with the given evidence and source (I like Zmag, but damn..).


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Edited by freddurgan (12/05/04 11:37 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Evidence, Mr. Ambassador? [Re: freddurgan]
    #3452110 - 12/05/04 11:46 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

freddurgan writes:

Well I didn't even know that Al-Jazeera was banned! That is rediculous.

The Iraqi provisional government banned Al-Jazeera reporters a while back.

We FORCE people to believe that us instilling a democracy is the best idea, and we cover up ANY information that might make people think otherwise.

You believe a non-democratic government is better for the people of Iraq, then? Which variant of non-democratic government do you think would be best for them? Constitutional Monarchy? Dictatorship?

pinky


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Evidence, Mr. Ambassador? [Re: Phred]
    #3452467 - 12/06/04 12:51 AM (12 years, 6 days ago)

I think constitutional monarchy, but then we would have to find a monarch for them, that would be a pain in the ass.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Evidence, Mr. Ambassador? [Re: shroomydan]
    #3455805 - 12/06/04 06:49 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Me, me, me, I wanna be king. Seriously though Krish' the war is not over and there appears to be more than enough coverage to get the news out. They'll all get their chance soon enough. My point is that nobody has been "eliminated" like the stupid cunt said. If they are going to use that kind of nonsensical rhetoric then they will be accorded no respect or credibility. Nonsense is nonsense. Only the "true believers" will be heartened by that shit.


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Evidence, Mr. Ambassador? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3457951 - 12/07/04 01:48 AM (12 years, 5 days ago)

I'm not saying Democracy isn't the best for them, I said us instilling democracy may not be the best idea. Iraq is a different country with different customs and different people. Maybe us RUSHING IN THERE, taking the leader, killing tons of people (not the goal) and forcing our system of government on them within 2 years isn't tbe best way to go about helping them out? Maybe, once Saddam - the real threat, remember? - was removed we should have given Iraq a chance to get themselves going. It probably would have

a.) cost fewer lives
b.) cost WAY, WAY less American money. We could have just payed for their new government and done way less damage.
c.) caused alot less American resentment.
d.) maybe given Iraq a chance to do what they wanted

And maybe Iraq does want a democracy. I don't know! I can't see how Iraqi's feel about the war. All I ever see is "insurgents". That's IT! Insurgents and death.

If I got some non-terror related news, (from Al-Jazeera perhaps?) then maybe I could make a more informed opinion. But until then, that's how I feel.


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