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Offlinefreddurgan
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Validity of some "Power of Nightmares" info
    #3448652 - 12/05/04 03:54 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I recently watched "The Power of Nightmares" from the BBC, which I thought was a great documentary. Some of the information I would like some more information on though.

The documentary stated that Al-Quaeda was fabricated in 2001 in order to help move along the prosecution of Bin Laden. Now, I don't understand "prosecution of Bin Laden" at all, first off. What do they mean by that? Why would the creation of an organization supposedly lead by him really help at all? Plus, the documentary said that at the time of the creation of "Al-Quaeda" that term had never been used before. Bin Laden didn't make it up, we did as a blanket statement for a vastly overblown terrorist threat.

Is this true? Did the term "Al-Quaeda" really not exist before 2001? Did we make it up? I feel that most of the evidence they showed really did build a strong case against the war on terror, but that point really bothers me and I'd like some more information.

Thanks


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
Re: Validity of some "Power of Nightmares" info [Re: freddurgan]
    #3448781 - 12/05/04 04:54 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaida

Although "al-Qaeda" is the name of the organization used in popular culture, the organization does not use the name to formally refer to itself. The name "al-Qaeda" was coined by the U.S. federal government based on the name of a computer file of bin Laden's that listed the names of contacts he had made in Afghanistan, which talks about the organization as the al-Qaeda-al-Jihad ("the base of the jihad").


From what I understand a named organization was required as a legal device to freeze bank accounts and assets, they needed something to fill a box on a form.


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: Validity of some "Power of Nightmares" info [Re: psilomonkey]
    #3448939 - 12/05/04 06:29 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Al-qaeda is an overblown threat. The administration (Bush) and then the media use it to put a villifying name on anything for public consumption. They don't trust your intelligence to distinguish between the people who blew up the towers and people who are islamic fundamentalist (read: crazy religious freaks) and people who oppose American imperialism (read: people who don't want us meddling in their own problems/country/region for our own means).


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: Validity of some "Power of Nightmares" info [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #3449183 - 12/05/04 10:41 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)



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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: Validity of some "Power of Nightmares" info [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3449189 - 12/05/04 10:44 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)



Edited by Great_Satan (12/05/04 10:46 AM)


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Validity of some "Power of Nightmares" info [Re: freddurgan]
    #3449505 - 12/05/04 12:15 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Is this true? Did the term "Al-Quaeda" really not exist before 2001? Did we make it up? I feel that most of the evidence they showed really did build a strong case against the war on terror, but that point really bothers me and I'd like some more information.




"al-qaeda" is an emmanuel goldstein front...where is OBL?? ..hes' somewhere passing a spliff and writing "the book" with goldstein...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Validity of some "Power of Nightmares" info [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3450798 - 12/05/04 06:27 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Lol, holy shit. Thanks guys. Best thread ever.

And man, that documentary was really eye opening. Who knows if it's all true (people can have a dissenting opinion on anything these days).


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Validity of some "Power of Nightmares" info [Re: freddurgan]
    #3451280 - 12/05/04 08:55 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Man, seriously I would not believe any of that. Osama Bin Laden has been a wanted man since 1996, and Al-Qaeda was certainly not fabricated. If you choose to disregard the facts and accept some twisted BBC funded conspiracy theory go ahead. You can't reason a man out of something he was never reasoned into in the first place.

It doesn't matter if you call them Aunt Sally, Al-Qaeda as the terrorist group was NOT fabricated. Bin Laden's people were involved in 1993 WTC bombings, the Somolian 'Black Hawk Down' attack, the African Embassy bombings, and the attack on the USS Cole before Al-Qaeda were perportedly 'made up'. This is why I hate the fucking BBC. Propaganda and trash.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Validity of some "Power of Nightmares" info [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3452081 - 12/05/04 11:41 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Well who says all those attacks were really coordinated? I know they were all done by islamic fundamentalists, which is the majority of violence in the middle east. They are anti-US and anti-west. But that doesn't mean they are all working together and under one leader.


--------------------
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http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Validity of some "Power of Nightmares" info [Re: freddurgan]
    #3452401 - 12/06/04 12:39 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

As far as I am aware at least 3 of those Osama Bin Laden himself has taken responsibility for.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Validity of some "Power of Nightmares" info [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3452905 - 12/06/04 02:25 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Al-Qaeda was certainly not fabricated

Well as has been proved, the name was made up by the US.

some twisted BBC funded conspiracy theory

Those well known anarchists at the BBC?

Al-Qaeda as the terrorist group was NOT fabricated

The documentary said the idea of al-qaeda as some SMERSH like organisation with Osama sitting in a cave stroking a white cat and planning worldwide operations was a fabrication.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Validity of some "Power of Nightmares" info [Re: freddurgan]
    #3453058 - 12/06/04 03:03 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

here are the transcripts of the 3rd part of the documentary that deals with "Al Qaeda":

part one
part two

great documentary :thumbup:


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Validity of some "Power of Nightmares" info [Re: Vvellum]
    #3453081 - 12/06/04 03:08 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

VO: Zawahiri was a follower of the Egyptian revolutionary, Sayyed Qutb, who had been executed in 1966. Qutb's vision had been of a new type of modern state. It would contain all of the benefits of Western science and technology, but it would use Islam as a moral framework to protect people from the culture of Western liberalism. Qutb believed that this culture infected the minds of Muslims, turning them into selfish creatures who threatened to destroy the shared values that held society together. Throughout the 80s and 90s, Zawahiri had tried to persuade the masses to rise up and topple the rulers who had allowed this corruption to infect their countries.

[ EXCERPT , VIDEOTAPE OF SADAT ASSASSINATION ]

[ CUT TO AYMAN ZAWAHIRI IN EGYPTIAN COURTROOM CELL ]

ZAWAHIRI [haranguing courtroom]: We want to speak to the whole world. Who are we?

VO: But the revolutionaries became trapped in a horrific escalation of violence, because the masses refused to follow them. Islamism failed as a mass movement, and Zawahiri now came to the conclusion that a new strategy was needed.

GILLES KEPEL , HISTORIAN OF ISLAMIST MOVEMENT: They had no revolution at all. I mean, they had failed in their takeover, they had failed to topple the powers that be, and, you know, they became more and more interested in this idea that only a small vanguard could be successful. I mean, they had lost confidence in the spontaneous capacity of the masses to be mobilised. Then they decided to change strategy completely, and instead of striking at what they called the ?near enemy??i.e., the local regimes?they decided that they could strike at the ?far away enemy??i.e., at the West, at America?and that would impress the masses, and the masses would be mobilised.

[ TITLE : NAIROBI , AUGUST 1998 ]

VO: Zawahiri and bin Laden began implementing this new strategy in August, 1998. Two huge suicide bombs were detonated outside American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, killing more than 200 people. The bombings had a dramatic effect on the West. For the first time, the name ?bin Laden? entered the public consciousness as a terrorist mastermind.

[ CUT TO AFGHANISTAN ]

VO: The suicide bombers had been recruited by bin Laden from the Islamist training camps in Afghanistan. But his and Zawahiri's operation was very much on the fringes of the Islamist movement. The overwhelming majority of the fighters in these camps had nothing at all to do with bin Laden or international terrorism. They were training to fight regimes in their own countries, such as Uzbekistan, Kashmir, and Chechnia. Their aim was to establish Islamist societies in the Western world, and they had no interest in attacking America. Bin Laden helped fund some of the camps, and in return was allowed to look for volunteers for his operations. But a number of senior Islamists were against his new strategy, including members of Zawahiri's own group, Islamic Jihad.

[ EXCERPT , CNN EXCLUSIVE VIDEO : BIN LADEN, SURROUNDED BY ARMED , MASKED SOLDIERS ]

VO: Even bin Laden's displays of strength to the Western media were faked. The fighters in this video had been hired for the day and told to bring their own weapons. For beyond this small group, bin Laden had no formal organisation?until the Americans invented one for him.

[ CUT TO MANHATTAN CITYSCAPE ]

[ TITLE : MANHATTAN , JANUARY 2001 ]

VO: In January, 2001, a trial began in a Manhattan courtroom of four men accused of the embassy bombings in east Africa. But the Americans had also decided to prosecute bin Laden in his absence. But to do this under American law, the prosecutors needed evidence of a criminal organisation because, as with the Mafia, that would allow them to prosecute the head of the organisation even if he could not be linked directly to the crime. And the evidence for that organisation was provided for them by an ex-associate of bin Laden's called Jamal al-Fadl.

JASON BURKE , AUTHOR, ?AL QAEDA? : During the investigation of the 1998 bombings, there is a walk-in source, Jamal al-Fadl, who is a Sudanese militant who was with bin Laden in the early 90s, who has been passed around a whole series of Middle East secret services, none of whom want much to do with him, and who ends up in America and is taken on by?uh?the American government, effectively, as a key prosecution witness and is given a huge amount of American taxpayers' money at the same time. And his account is used as raw material to build up a picture of Al Qaeda. The picture that the FBI want to build up is one that will fit the existing laws that they will have to use to prosecute those responsible for the bombing. Now, those laws were drawn up to counteract organised crime: the Mafia, drugs crime, crimes where people being a member of an organisation is extremely important. You have to have an organisation to get a prosecution. And you have al-Fadl and a number of other witness, a number of other sources, who are happy to feed into this. You got material that, looked at in a certain way, can be seen to show this organisation's existence. You put the two together and you get what is the first bin Laden myth?the first Al Qaeda myth. And because it's one of the first, it's extremely influential.

VO: The picture al-Fadl drew for the Americans of bin Laden was of an all-powerful figure at the head of a large terrorist network that had an organised network of control. He also said that bin Laden had given this network a name: ?Al Qaeda.? It was a dramatic and powerful picture of bin Laden, but it bore little relationship to the truth.

[ EXCERPT, CNN EXCLUSIVE VIDEO : BIN LADEN AND SOLDIERS ]

VO: The reality was that bin Laden and Ayman Zawahiri had become the focus of a loose association of disillusioned Islamist militants who were attracted by the new strategy. But there was no organisation. These were militants who mostly planned their own operations and looked to bin Laden for funding and assistance. He was not their commander. There is also no evidence that bin Laden used the term ?Al Qaeda? to refer to the name of a group until after September the 11th, when he realized that this was the term the Americans have given it.

[ CUT TO MANHATTAN SKYLINE ]

VO: In reality, Jamal al-Fadl was on the run from bin Laden, having stolen money from him. In return for his evidence, the Americans gave him witness protection in America and hundreds of thousands of dollars. Many lawyers at the trial believed that al-Fadl exaggerated and lied to give the Americans the picture of a terrorist organisation that they needed to prosecute bin Laden.

SAM SCHMIDT , DEFENCE LAWYER EMBASSY BOMBINGS TRIAL: And there were selective portions of al-Fadl's testimony that I believe was false, to help support the picture that he helped the Americans join together. I think he lied in a number of specific testimony about a unified image of what this organisation was. It made Al Qaeda the new Mafia or the new Communists. It made them identifiable as a group and therefore made it easier to prosecute any person associated with Al Qaeda for any acts or statements made by bin Laden?who talked a lot.

BURKE : The idea?which is critical to the FBI's prosecution?that bin Laden ran a coherent organisation with operatives and cells all around the world of which you could be a member is a myth. There is no Al Qaeda organisation. There is no international network with a leader, with cadres who will unquestioningly obey orders, with tentacles that stretch out to sleeper cells in America, in Africa, in Europe. That idea of a coherent, structured terrorist network with an organised capability simply does not exist.




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Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
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Re: Validity of some "Power of Nightmares" info [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3453278 - 12/06/04 04:18 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Have you actually seen this for yourself yet?

Quote:


http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post3283663

Divided_Sky said:

Well actually I couldn't download the files, I'll let you guys know when I do, but I have read a few articles on the series and it sounds totally ridiculous. We will see.






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