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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3447573 - 12/04/04 10:50 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

But with my every post speaking about God it seems I am told I am Delusional.

Try to stay with me here. By some estimates there are some 30,000 different religious sects. Most all of them claim to be the ONE AND ONLY true way. Even those who do make allowances for other religions will tell you theirs is THE BEST WAY.

So basically, either 29,999 sects are wrong (read: delusional) or all 30,000 are in error. This is flawless logic and is nothing personal against you.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: Krishna]
    #3447574 - 12/04/04 10:50 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

There is no proof of Gods existence.

Therefore, I don't have a belief in him.

It is simple and logically sound.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
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Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3447580 - 12/04/04 10:51 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

God is not happy when he is portrayed as not being real.

God has an ego or is capable of getting his feelings hurt?
Awwww...poor God!

Excuse my being flippant, but..
Aren't you really saying that his followers are not happy when their concept of God is challenged?


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: looner2]
    #3447586 - 12/04/04 10:53 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

unless the inherent nature of "God" is beyond the subject-object orientation that is necessary for scientific proof. then, the tools of the scientific method break down - it's not that they prove "God" doesn't exist, it's that they are incapable of addressing the question. In my mind, it doesn't mean that one should abandon the question - it means that one needs to search for different methods by which to investigate it.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: kaiowas]
    #3447592 - 12/04/04 10:55 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I knew the minute I said that this question would be asked.

I know that God is a emotional being. He is a being built of Pure Love. And Love is capable of being Sad or disappointed. The bible has many stories about God and his needs.

Jesus was God living as a Man and Jesus was pissed off a few times and he was sad as held our sins in his hands. He asked God to forgive us many, many times and cried.

Your question is a very difficult one to answer. I don't think I can do a good enough Job to satisfy you.

I struggle with it myself. I can tell you that during deep prayer I can feel the sadness that God feels over Mans continual denial of him. God wants nothing more than all of Man kind to love him.

I will do some study the next couple nights and try to find scripture to answer this hard question

God is not a emotionless being that I know for sure :thumbup:


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: Krishna]
    #3447603 - 12/04/04 10:57 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)


unless the inherent nature of "God" is beyond the subject-object orientation that is necessary for scientific proof. then, the tools of the scientific method break down - it's not that they prove "God" doesn't exist, it's that they are incapable of addressing the question. In my mind, it doesn't mean that one should abandon the question - it means that one needs to search for different methods by which to investigate it.


"subject-object orientation"

What does that mean? Is it a classy way to say, "reality". Then yes, the scientific way only applies to reality. What else is there? Nothing that you or I know of, so why insist that something else exists?


--------------------
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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Registered: 07/07/04
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Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: Swami]
    #3447611 - 12/04/04 10:58 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:Try to stay with me here. By some estimates there are some 30,000 different religious sects. Most all of them claim to be the ONE AND ONLY true way. Even those who do make allowances for other religions will tell you theirs is THE BEST WAY.

So basically, either 29,999 sects are wrong (read: delusional) or all 30,000 are in error. This is flawless logic and is nothing personal against you.


From a more conventional (specific, individual) perspective, the 30 000 personal gods do exist. From a more fundamental (general, universal) perspective, there is only one god.

Something illusory is not non-existent, it merely exists in an illusory manner. Why must you polarize the issue? One is right and the rest are wrong? What about they are all right to varying degrees? Just as everything is illusory to varying degrees, and everything is imaginary to varying degrees?


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: Swami]
    #3447636 - 12/04/04 11:04 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
But with my every post speaking about God it seems I am told I am Delusional.

Try to stay with me here. By some estimates there are some 30,000 different religious sects. Most all of them claim to be the ONE AND ONLY true way. Even those who do make allowances for other religions will tell you theirs is THE BEST WAY.

So basically, either 29,999 sects are wrong (read: delusional) or all 30,000 are in error. This is flawless logic and is nothing personal against you.




Swami you will not ever hear me say that anyone religion is the right one. I know that God is very much part of many things and many systems. The fact that life is a choice between good and evil is the bigger picture. All men learn of evil and good. All men know that murder is wrong. The fact that some many religions are in conflict is a testament to who is master over this world.

I do know that Jesus is the only way to get to God. Jesus has made many visits to many cultures. He made a visit to the American Indians at some time and he will make himself known to all. I have no one answer for you Friend. There are many mysteries that I can not know the answers to. Jesus himself said that God allows us each to understand what it si that God needs us to know. Keep the goal on him and these things will be known to you when you need to know. There are no absolute answers to such questions.

I know God and he lets me in on the things he needs me to know. That is why I have such a great friendship with him. I don't push my own understanding on him. I wait for his wisdom and grace.

I can not say how god get things done. I am not God.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: looner2]
    #3447651 - 12/04/04 11:06 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

no, there is a definite distinction (in my mind) between "reality" and "subject-object orientation". a subject-object orientation assumes a seperation between the observer, and the observed. now, one might make the argument that modern physics has, in a sense, rendered the scientific method futile - as it has shown that there can be no such thing as an "impartial" observer. there is no way to "observe" an event without "observing" it - and if by "observing" it, you change it - then there is no way to analyze an event free from your interference. (maybe i'm not explaining this idea so well, but i hope you see my point). beyond this argument, what about "internal" states of being? when the "object" in question is the "subject" - ie self-reflection? clearly one cannot take an objective point of view when examining themselves. is the "internal" state of being not a part of reality, because it cannot be verified by any external observer? maybe it's all in my imagination, and there is no internal state of being.... but then wouldn't the presence of my imagination indicate that there is such an internal state?


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: Krishna]
    #3447686 - 12/04/04 11:16 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)


no, there is a definite distinction (in my mind) between "reality" and "subject-object orientation". a subject-object orientation assumes a seperation between the observer, and the observed.


No idea what you are saying.

now, one might make the argument that modern physics has, in a sense, rendered the scientific method futile - as it has shown that there can be no such thing as an "impartial" observer. there is no way to "observe" an event without "observing" it - and if by "observing" it, you change it - then there is no way to analyze an event free from your interference. (maybe i'm not explaining this idea so well, but i hope you see my point).

No, I don't see your point, I am thoroughly confused. I do know that modern physics has not rendered the scientific method futile. Are you writing about the theory of relativity with the "observe" talk?



is the "internal" state of being not a part of reality, because it cannot be verified by any external observer? maybe it's all in my imagination, and there is no internal state of being.... but then wouldn't the presence of my imagination indicate that there is such an internal state?

Consciousness, or brain activity is comprised of electrical impulses, which can be verified through lots of means.

Sorry, but thats all I can say with your post. I struggled with each sentence. If i can't understand I can't respond anymore.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: looner2]
    #3447764 - 12/04/04 11:37 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

ok i'll try to clarify myself a bit. no, i wasn't referring to the theory of relativity - that is about reference points, and contraction/dialation of space-time. i'm talking about some "discoveries" in quantum physics. basically, the concept is - simply by observing something, we affect it. on the sub-atomic level, this can easily be seen - the only way to get any information about, say, an electron, is to hit it with a photon, and then "catch" the photon as it comes back. this is, basically, what sight is - photons hit atoms, and then bounce back into our eyes. however, in hitting the electron, the photon increases the potential energy of that electron - and if this energy increase is enough, the electron should "jump" energy levels (this analogy, commonly known as the planetary model of atoms, is actually very misleading - if we accept the probabilistic model shown by Shrodinger, et al - things become a lot stranger). so anyway, this breaks down the distinction between "observer" (ie the scientist) and "observed" (ie the atom) - simply by looking at the atom, the scientist changes it. now the scientific method has been based on the idea that the "observer" can be removed from the equation, and it won't make a difference - that the observer does not effect the object they are observing. however, if we accept the discoveries of quantum physics, we lose this objectivity. in a sense, it confirms something that makes linguistic sense - you can't look at something without looking at it.

any clearer? to really do these theories any justice, it would require a lot more explanation then i'm capable of...

as to your second point, brain activity can be verified through many means, that is true. but consciousness? i've seen studies where they show correlations between certain patterns of thought and areas of brain activity (for instance, certain centers of the brain being more "active" during meditation) - but i have yet to see any study that shows where the "thought" itself is.


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OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
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Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: Swami]
    #3447806 - 12/04/04 11:48 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

So let me get this straight, swami runs around here rebutting beliefs in God and offering a 20,000 wager against the existance of God?

I've read some funny shit before, but this one made me piss myself. :smile:


--------------------
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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
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Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3447850 - 12/04/04 11:58 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Arguing for or against the existance of God is just pissing into the wind. If the existance or non-existance of God makes no practical difference in the operation of the universe the whole converstion is a useless argument, and one's personal interaction with God is so subjective as to be irrelevant to all other people. Getting upset because someone does not (or does) believe is useless as well. It is not a personal issue that needs to be defended. It is either self evident or it isn't.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3447866 - 12/05/04 12:02 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Why must you polarize the issue?

WTF? I do not polarize the issue. The followers themselves make the statements about theirs being the only true path, not I.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3447870 - 12/05/04 12:02 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

"If God does not exist, it would be impossible to prove it, but if God does exist,it would be folly to try to prove it." - S?ren Kierkegaard


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3447880 - 12/05/04 12:04 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Swami you will not ever hear me say that anyone religion is the right one.
I won't, eh?

I do know that Jesus is the only way to get to God.
In direct contrast to your opening statement.

I rest my case.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3447891 - 12/05/04 12:07 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

...and offering a 20,000 wager against the existance of God?

Somebody here is on drugs and it ain't me. It is almost impossible to hold a conversation with people who hallucinate words, nevermind undetectable beings.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: Swami]
    #3447899 - 12/05/04 12:09 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

can you clarify the terms of this wager, swami? i've only heard indirect talk of it... maybe i can claim that 20 grand :smile:


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3447926 - 12/05/04 12:15 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
I knew the minute I said that this question would be asked.

I know that God is a emotional being. He is a being built of Pure Love. And Love is capable of being Sad or disappointed. The bible has many stories about God and his needs.

Jesus was God living as a Man and Jesus was pissed off a few times and he was sad as held our sins in his hands. He asked God to forgive us many, many times and cried.

Your question is a very difficult one to answer. I don't think I can do a good enough Job to satisfy you.

I struggle with it myself. I can tell you that during deep prayer I can feel the sadness that God feels over Mans continual denial of him. God wants nothing more than all of Man kind to love him.

I will do some study the next couple nights and try to find scripture to answer this hard question

God is not a emotionless being that I know for sure :thumbup:




tis all good fucknuckle.  I think scriptures would be cool so see, but like I said before, i'm not asking for defence, just why you think so.

what in your experience told you...god is not emotionless. I'd rather hear your words, but if you can express your words through scripture..go for it :smile:

what would god's reasoning be? :wink:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


Edited by kaiowas (12/05/04 12:47 AM)


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OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
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Re: To Swami and his followers [Re: Swami]
    #3447936 - 12/05/04 12:17 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

"Jesus is the only way to get to God."

BAHAHAHAHAHA that sounds like jesus is some sort of super duper teleportal unit and God is some far off distant city.

Like this cat jesus is just some dude that helps people sneak accross some mystical border. LOL

Jesus says: "O.K. God will see you now...

...You know I'm the only way to get to God. HEY! Hey you can't go in there man, you didn't go through me, hey come back here, come back!!!!

....Yeah, I got tickets to god man, and I'm the only one who gots 'em. ..

Jesus is but a flying carpet to swoosh you in to see God ..

LOL I'll sneak under the fucking fence. ha!


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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