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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Tough question
    #3445058 - 12/04/04 09:32 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

If a person were totally Christ like naturally without the fear of eternal hell* to restrain their actions but didn't believe in God, would they still go to Heaven when they die? :crazy:


I apologise if i seem to be directing that question towards those here that believe(as i do)in God and Jesus the last thing i want to do is alienate anyone which i think is a common mistake that most, ok well a LOT of "born again Christians" make. I just want to know what YOU think whether we share the same beliefs or not




*Just wanted to say i personally prefer to focus all my NRG's on the Kingdom of God and my relationship with Him than to fear ANYthing.To draw an anology using Franz Kafka book titles: I choose to focus on the Castle, that way i don't even have to think about the Trial :smile:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Tough question [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3445093 - 12/04/04 10:00 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

""go to Heaven""

teach me Hebraic?
show me the "not English scripture".`?
and i shall tell you what that sentence really said? :P


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Tough question [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3445147 - 12/04/04 10:40 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

How can one believe in a heaven to go to if they do not believe in a hell to fear?

You cannot have black without white.

The reason your question alienates certain people (Despite you trying not to) is that it still relies on the concept of belief in heaven in the first place--which directly contradicts a non-belief in hell, imho.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Tough question [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3445203 - 12/04/04 11:05 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

they would be in heaven while they lived

after death, no one here has the credentials to offer anything more than a hypothesis

but I would say something along the lines of physical disconnection (duh :wink:), along with dissolving of consciousness into eternal void (bliss). :cool:


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Tough question [Re: deff]
    #3445232 - 12/04/04 11:20 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
but I would say something along the lines of physical disconnection (duh :wink:), along with dissolving of consciousness into eternal void (bliss).




That sounds something like what I speculate death to likely be. :smile:


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Tough question [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3445265 - 12/04/04 11:34 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

JacquesCousteau said:
How can one believe in a heaven to go to if they do not believe in a hell to fear?

You cannot have black without white.

The reason your question alienates certain people (Despite you trying not to) is that it still relies on the concept of belief in heaven in the first place--which directly contradicts a non-belief in hell, imho.




Actually man i was directing that question at everyone, you don't have to share my beliefs to answer it, i thought i had made that clear but i guess i hadn't, sorry.I honestly see a BAC's alienating people that don't share HIS faith as one of the biggest blunders a BAC makes which is why i prefer to refer to myself as one who has turned towards God for the first time

Like i have said so many times B4, my focus is entirely on God and as such i don't even think about the other place. To repeat an analogy i quoted elsewhere: Focus on the Kingdom and don't worry about the "Trial"


And yes, i admit to assuming that there even is one, whether a mass judgment day or an individual one on one at the point of death. I don't know the Bible nearly well enough to tackle the weighter subjects right now so i just leave all the fine details to God  :heart:


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Tough question [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3445287 - 12/04/04 11:41 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You cannot have black without white


I seem to recally saying something along those lines yesterday and saying that there are no gray areas RE God and the Bible, which i think some people interpreted as close mindedness on my part.

It is black and white with me re the 2 places/states I believe(imo implied) that a person spends eternity after dying to this life. The grey area of purgatory preached by the catholic church isn't mentioned even once (as far as I know) in the Bible


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: Tough question [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3445297 - 12/04/04 11:44 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I would say yes they would. Cuz they believed in a greater good. And they acted in a loveing peacful way. You dont need to humble your self in my opion by saying jesus is my personal savior to be excepted into heaven as long as you believe in what jesus did. He didnt know what he was preaching when he preached it other then loving your brothers and sissters. I cant except jesus as my lord and savior for the reason that there are profets and saints walking this planet as we sit and talk about it. Jesus was a good man and I do believe in him. But to say he is the only good man defeats the purpose of being next to godly. Ego is a start of evilness. puting your ego into a single person imo is just as bad. Believing in a greater good and seeing all as 1 is better in my own world.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Tough question [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3445302 - 12/04/04 11:46 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I realize you were addressing the question to everyone, but that doesn't change the fact that the basic stance of your question assumes a belief in heaven in the first place. So you're basically projecting your beliefs onto others, which isn't fair when asking a question that you want to apply to everyone equally.

Know'm saying? Like.. even though you want your question to address everyone equally, by setting standards such as the necessity of heaven's existance you are still alienating anyone who does not believe in the after-death concept of heaven and hell.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Tough question [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3445311 - 12/04/04 11:51 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You're mixing beliefs with what is. I see this as contradictory.

You can definitely BELIEVE that the after-life experience is divided "black and white"--"heave and hell" but that doesn't change the fact that when you look around you everything exists in a multitude of varying degrees in THIS life.

I do not believe in purgatory any more than I believe in heaven and hell... so the entire concept is thrown out for me, and it does not apply.

I believe duality only exists in this life as it is perceived through the ego.

Duality is a result of our perceptions. In order for us to identify ourselves as individualized, as a seperation from all that exists and is, we form an ego. This ego projects this concept of duality (originating from a deep rooted belief that we are seperate from all of that which is around us--which is actually necessary for survival early in life) onto all that we perceive THROUGH this ego.

Therefore, when the ego ceases to exist, so does duality.

(Assume an "IMHO" after each statement that sounds like I'm stating fact.. heh)


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Tough question [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3445347 - 12/04/04 12:12 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I don't recall saying that i believed Jesus was the ONLY good person as there's been and are many. I myself have chosen of my own free will to choose Him in whom to put my faith however :smile:


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Tough question [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3445365 - 12/04/04 12:22 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Assume an "IMHO" after each statement that sounds like I'm stating fact.. heh)


Same here :wink:

Duality is a result of our perceptions. In order for us to identify ourselves as individualized, as a seperation from all that exists and is, we form an ego. This ego projects this concept of duality (originating from a deep rooted belief that we are seperate from all of that which is around us--which is actually necessary for survival early in life) onto all that we perceive THROUGH this ego.

Therefore, when the ego ceases to exist, so does duality.



i fully understand your reasoning, but by virtue of my choosing to be a Christian and believing in the Heaven/Hell, good/evil dichotomy where duality is a cornerstone of my faith i can't agree with you, as you not believing in duality(heaven/hell etc)as having any independant existance outside of my own(ego) belief system you can not agree with me.

  This doesn't mean that we can not be agreeable with each other despite the mutual incompatablity of our respective belief systems  :grin:


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: Tough question [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3445367 - 12/04/04 12:22 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I dont think I said you said that there was only one. But when you choose christiananity thats what you are supposed to do.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Tough question [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3445374 - 12/04/04 12:27 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"This doesn't mean that we can not be agreeable with each other despite the mutual incompatablity of our respective belief systems"

I'm glad you see that... many in your religion do not. :wink:


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Tough question [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3445382 - 12/04/04 12:30 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Well i myself seem to have a few differences with your prototype "born again" Christian, in fact i much prefer(i've said this B4 but just in case you missed it elsewhere) to call myself one who has turned towards the Lord for my first time instead. I myself would never say that there were/are no good men outside of Jesus, but as a Christian i do believe in Christ's divinity :smile:


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: Tough question [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3445383 - 12/04/04 12:32 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

as do I though I am not christian.


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Tough question [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3445398 - 12/04/04 12:37 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

JacquesCousteau said:
"This doesn't mean that we can not be agreeable with each other despite the mutual incompatablity of our respective belief systems"

I'm glad you see that... many in your religion do not. :wink:




That is so true man, myself i don't see any reason why Christians and non Christians can't live in harmony. If i AM wrong in my beliefs, who am i hurting? As i've said elsewhere i can see where many BAC's alientate people with their self righteousness and asserting THEIR belief as being the only correct one. If God himself hadn't taken me through Heaven and the other place i really don't think i would ever have accepted God, Jesus and the Bible on the basis of faith alone, and if I say that, how can i legitimately expect anyone else to either?


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: Tough question [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3445415 - 12/04/04 12:43 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

What would you say to the idea that the Testement is realy old astrology. Read by many illogicaly and interperated as christianity. fish on dishes = pices, the 12 diceiples = the houses. The son of god = the sun up in the sky.


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Tough question [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3445446 - 12/04/04 12:59 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

For me i take the Bible literally, even at the risk of being called gullible, naive even stoopid. If someone else wants to take the Bible any other way(allegorically, metaphorically etc) that is up to them. As far as i'm concerned the Bible wants us all  to just get along despite what our differences might be: Love thy neighbor as thyself etc :smile:


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Tough question [Re: Gomp]
    #3449164 - 12/05/04 10:37 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:
""go to Heaven""

teach me Hebraic?






Like you Gomperoo, I'm still struggling with English :wink:


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