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InvisibleKrishna
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Rumsfeld and others might go on trial...
    #3443625 - 12/03/04 10:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

CCR Call for Trial

Call on the German Federal Prosecutor to Investigate Rumsfeld and Other U.S. Officials for War Crimes at Abu Ghraib



The Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) and four Iraqis who were tortured in U.S. custody have filed a complaint with the German Federal Prosecutor's Office against high ranking United States civilian and military commanders over the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison and elsewhere in Iraq.



We are asking the German prosecutor to launch an investigation: since the U.S. government is unwilling to open an independent investigation into the responsibility of these officials for war crimes, and since the U.S. has refused to join the International Criminal Court, CCR and the Iraqi victims have brought this complaint in Germany as a court of last resort. Several of the defendants are stationed in Germany.



Defendants include Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, former CIA Director George Tenet, Lt. General Ricardo S. Sanchez, Major-General Walter Wojdakowski, Brig.-General Janis Karpinski, Lt.-Colonel Jerry L. Phillabaum, Colonel Thomas M. Pappas, Lt.-Colonel Stephen L. Jordan, Major-General Geoffrey Miller, and Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence Stephen Cambone.



German law allows German courts to prosecute for killing, torture, cruel and inhumane treatment, forcible transfers and sexual coercion such as occurred at Abu Ghraib. The world has seen the photographs and read the leaked "torture memos" - we are doing what is necessary when other systems of justice have failed and seeking to hold officials up the chain of command responsible for the shameful abuses that occurred.



Please join our effort! The German Prosecutor has discretion to decide whether to initiate an investigation. It is critical that he hear from you so he knows that people around the world support this effort. Send a letter here

And please forward this message widely!



Michael Ratner
President
Center for Constitutional Rights

from: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=51&ItemID=6779





here's another article about this: http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/1259


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: Krishna]
    #3443793 - 12/03/04 10:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

there would be no trail (war) if the Germans and french were not bribed to begin with. (food for oil)


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3443845 - 12/03/04 11:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

there would be no problem of historically opposed tribes/factions having to live in the same country if the British wouldn't have seperated their mandates in the way they did (late 1800s, early 1900s). the current gov't of iran might not be in place if the US hadn't put the Shah in power. the entire middle east might be at peace if we didn't require oil as our main fuel source. there would be no Saddam Hussein (or at least no credible threat to anybody) if the US wouldn't have supported him with weapons. etc etc etc...

many people have done things wrong in this world - especially the West in it's imperial/colonial ventures throughout the past, say, 500 years. however, that old saying "two wrongs don't make a right" is very true. certainly, any european executives or gov't officials who took bribes during the food for oil program should pay for every single iraqi child who died due to lack of medicine - they should be held responsible for the horrendous human cost that UN sanctions had on the Iraqi people (without having the slightest effect on Saddam). It doesn't mean that Rumsfeld, et al, aren't guilty of war crimes.

Think about the defence you have raised for these men - "well they wouldn't have had to advocate/support/order the use of torture if it wasn't for those euros taking bribes" . in my opinion, the use of torture is never justifiable - especially not when you claim to be bringing freedom, democracy, and liberty. there are certain standards that we need to hold ourselves accountable to, if we are at all honest in our claims of bringing peace, justice, etc to the rest of the world... not torturing prisoners is one of these standards. (so is, in my opinion, not inciting aggressive war... but then again, who remembers the Geneva convention nowadays?)


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: Krishna]
    #3443951 - 12/03/04 11:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

yes, two wrongs do not make a right...but i believe torture should be used in certain situations, and the abu stuff was done by some asshole idiots who do not represent the u.s. military.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3449297 - 12/05/04 11:23 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It will never happen. The lawyers are just ripping off some fools who put up the money to pay them for the case.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3449308 - 12/05/04 11:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Germany seeks closer ties with Britain
By Anton La Guardia
(Filed: 03/02/2004)

Chancellor was a 'prisoner' of French president in 'catastrophic' opposition to war to topple Saddam, writes Anton La Guardia


Germany is seeking to distance itself from France's tight embrace and realign itself more closely to Britain and America, senior German officials signalled yesterday.

They said the row with Washington over Iraq had been "catastrophic" for Berlin and Chancellor Gerhard Schr?der had become "a prisoner" of President Jacques Chirac's campaign to oppose the war to topple Saddam Hussein last year.

"We were more dependent on the French in that situation. But this will not be a permanent situation," said one authoritative source.

Another official explained: "We have to be careful that we are not identified with every word that the French president utters. We must have our own identity and be a little more clever."

The latest indications of Berlin's quest for a rapprochement with London and Washington came two days after Joschka Fischer, Germany's foreign minister, abandoned Berlin's dream of creating a European federal state.

In an interview with The Telegraph, Mr Fischer said the Iraq crisis had exposed the divisions within Europe and brought home to him the need to accept diverse traditions and history.

He even adopted some of Tony Blair's language about the need for the European Union to rest "on strong member states" rather than becoming a "superstate".

Germany has no intention of abandoning the close partnership with France, a central plank of its foreign policy. Any change, if it comes, is likely to be gradual.

But Berlin apparently wants to redesign the once all-powerful "Franco-German motor" to include Britain and perhaps Poland.

"German-French understanding is a necessary condition to move Europe forward, but it is not sufficient," said one senior official. "The European project cannot move without Britain and Poland. This is not always understood in France."

Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary, has responded to such overtures by saying the big three countries of the EU - Britain, France and Germany - need to play the leading role in Europe.

He has cited the EU pressure on Iran to come clean about its suspected nuclear weapons programme as evidence of successful action by the three countries.

But in the agreement to disarm Libya of weapons of mass destruction Britain proceeded alone with the United States.

Britain will be wary of German overtures unless it sees concrete evidence of Mr Schr?der's independence from M Chirac rather than mere talk by German officials.

Germany has long regarded a strong alliance with America as vital. But during the diplomatic battles over the war in Iraq Mr Schr?der firmly allied himself to M Chirac in confronting the might of the United States and blocking United Nations authorisation for military action.

Since then Mr Schr?der has tried to repair relations with President George W Bush, signalling flexibility on a wide range of issues short of publicly recanting his opposition to war in Iraq. Yesterday, the sources said Germany was now likely to support the deployment of Nato peacekeeping forces in Iraq, albeit without the direct participation of German troops. Any such decision would mark a serious attempt to overcome the bitter transatlantic divisions over the war.

Now German officials say they are also ready to offer limited help in Iraq. "We have an interest in success in Iraq," insisted one official. "Unless there is stability and some kind of democracy there could be a negative domino effect across the region to the detriment of everybody's interests in the West."

31 January 2004: Germany gives up dream of federal Europe
17 December 2003: EU leaders must fight to win public trust, warns Straw


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jht...03/ixworld.html


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3450234 - 12/05/04 03:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i can tell you haven't been to europe lately. public opinion is enormously against the current methods of Bush and Blair's "war on terror." people believe something needs to be done, definitely, but i think that average european does not believe that going in "guns a'blazin" is the way to solve this problem...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3450348 - 12/05/04 04:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

...but i believe torture should be used in certain situations...

The "certain situation" being one in which you or a loved one is not the victim.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibledjfrog
omgws!!!1!

Registered: 10/23/00
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: Krishna]
    #3450415 - 12/05/04 04:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for the link. I participated.

Reports of what has happend at Abu Ghraib and at Guantamo Bay are a signficant reason for concern. An indepedent investigation is necessary to prevent an internal coverup. Within any sort of bureaucracy, when shit goes down, it goes downhill. The people at the bottom get blamed, but not necessarily those at the top who should be held accountable. Its getting the people at the top that is necessary however to get real reform.

When lawyers for the current administration are privately writing legal papers to demonstrate that the US is not bound by the Geneva Convention, there is a good reason to believe they're hiding more.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: djfrog]
    #3450471 - 12/05/04 04:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The Geneva convention does not apply to non-uniformed personnel. This is not a secret.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: Swami]
    #3451025 - 12/05/04 07:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Torture is a matter of balancing innocent lives against the means needed to save them.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: Krishna]
    #3451048 - 12/05/04 08:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Krishna said:
i can tell you haven't been to europe lately. public opinion is enormously against the current methods of Bush and Blair's "war on terror." people believe something needs to be done, definitely, but i think that average european does not believe that going in "guns a'blazin" is the way to solve this problem...




People like you make it dangerous for Americans to leave America. I don't see how you can bash the country you live in constantly on the internet day and night and then expect to go to Europe and not get beat up by someone who hates Americans.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3451276 - 12/05/04 08:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

How is he bashing america? Your so simple minded.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3453810 - 12/06/04 11:01 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

America has made it dangerous for Americans to travel abroad.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: afoaf]
    #3453830 - 12/06/04 11:13 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The rest of the world is just like America being comprised mostly of ignorant rednecks.


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OfflineKoOs
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: afoaf]
    #3454379 - 12/06/04 01:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:
:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:
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:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:
:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:
:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:
:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:
:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3454477 - 12/06/04 01:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

torture is incredibly known to produce false information. Those who are tortured will say and agree to anything. Torture is hardly an effective means to obtaining information.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: Vvellum]
    #3455973 - 12/06/04 07:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

No one was tortured at Abu Graib or Guantanimo Bay.


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3456162 - 12/06/04 07:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Great_Satan said:
I don't see how you can bash the country you live in constantly on the internet day and night and then expect to go to Europe and not get beat up by someone who hates Americans.




Well, I lived in Europe from August 2002 until August 2004. And I'm moving back their this January...and I have never once felt even slightly afraid of being "beat up by someone who hates Americans." Sorry, Great_Satan, but your world of make-believe is just that. Get out and see the world, man, and then maybe you might realize that the one-ness of humanity far exceeds national borders.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Rumsfeld and others might go on trial... [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3456210 - 12/06/04 08:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Great_Satan said:
No one was tortured at Abu Graib or Guantanimo Bay.



:eek: :wtf: :cuckoo: :shiftyeyes:


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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