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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable.
    #3441144 - 12/03/04 09:07 AM (12 years, 7 days ago)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=st...anamo_detainees

Where do we draw the line? Isn't this wrong on many levels? How can we be sure that these people aren't just confessing so they stop torturing them?

Is this starting to sound like WWII nazi germany to anyone else??

And finally, how long will it be before they start using these rules in combination with such things as the patriot act to remove the rights of citizens who fall into certain categories that they deem unacceptable?

I keep thinking it is time to pack my shit and get out, but I am attached to family and job here to prevent it. I'm somewhat concerned that by the time it's extreme enough to convince me, it will be too late to get out safely.

Mods, please don't move this to the Politics forum, as I don't think this is a political issue but a moral and philosophical issue.

Furthermore, I consider this particular forum (S+P) one of my only homes here, and I am looking for opinions from the local residents, not the population of another forum.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3441156 - 12/03/04 09:20 AM (12 years, 7 days ago)

Shut up - be happy!

You are free to do as you are told

The comfort that the population has desired...is now mandatory.

Curfew will be imposed at 10pm - anyone found out of their homes after curfew will be shot.

Anyone found out of their designated neighbourhood area will also be shot.

The right to trial by jury has been abolished. If we suspect you, you will be found guilty. Everyone is a criminal and must carry their tag number in the form of an ID card. Anyone found without an ID card on their person at any time will be shot.

Do as we say - shut up - BE HAPPY!

:hellfire:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3441199 - 12/03/04 09:36 AM (12 years, 7 days ago)

Is this starting to sound like WWII nazi germany to anyone else?

I often wonder the same thing.

The world turns, and history repeats itself. Humans have such a short memory...


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: trendal]
    #3441230 - 12/03/04 09:50 AM (12 years, 7 days ago)

Trendal, can I sleep on your floor when the shit hits the fan? heh...  :grin:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3441274 - 12/03/04 10:05 AM (12 years, 7 days ago)

Yes, but you'll have to be careful not to trip over the other floor-sleepers I'm sure to gather :wink:

If the shit really does hit the fan, Jacques, I'll be looking for people like you to group up with.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: trendal]
    #3441327 - 12/03/04 10:30 AM (12 years, 7 days ago)

shit's sprayin a little bit over here I can tell u!


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: CJay]
    #3441332 - 12/03/04 10:32 AM (12 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
Shut up - be happy!

You are free to do as you are told

The comfort that the population has desired...is now mandatory.

Curfew will be imposed at 10pm - anyone found out of their homes after curfew will be shot.

Anyone found out of their designated neighbourhood area will also be shot.

The right to trial by jury has been abolished. If we suspect you, you will be found guilty. Everyone is a criminal and must carry their tag number in the form of an ID card. Anyone found without an ID card on their person at any time will be shot.

Do as we say - shut up - BE HAPPY!




Is that some Jello Biafra? Machinegun in the Clown's Hand is a killer album :smile:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleCJay
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Posts: 931
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: trendal]
    #3441373 - 12/03/04 10:48 AM (12 years, 7 days ago)

Yeh

I originally heard it on an Ice T tune - 'shut up, be happy' from the album 'freedom of speech'

I didn't quote it, just adapted and threw in a few of my thoughts off the cuff. What Jello actually said was:

"WE INTERRUPT THIS PROGRAM WITH A SPECIAL BULLETIN. AMERICA IS NOW UNDER MARTIAL LAW. ALL CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS HAVE BEEN SUSPENDED. STAY IN YOUR HOMES, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO CONTACT LOVED ONES, INSURANCE AGENTS OR ATTORNEYS. SHUT UP! DO NOT ATTEMPT TO THINK OR DEPRESSION MAY OCCUR. STAY IN YOUR HOMES, CURFEW IS AT 7 PM SHARP AFTER WORK. ANYONE CAUGHT OUTSIDE THE GATES OF THEIR SUBDIVISION SECTOR AFTER DARK WILL BE SHOT! REMAIN CALM, DO NOT PANIC. YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH OFFICER WILL BE BY TO COLLECT URINE SAMPLES IN THE MORNING. ANYONE CAUGHT INTERFERING WITH THE COLLECTION OF URINE SAMPLES WILL BE SHOT! STAY IN YOUR HOME, REMAIN CALM. THE NUMBER ONE ENEMY OF PROGRESS IS QUESTIONS. NATIONAL SECURITY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN INDIVIDUAL WILL. ALL SPORTS BROADCAST WILL PROCEED AS NORMAL. NO MORE THAN TWO PEOPLE MAY GATHER ANYWHERE WITHOUT PERMISSION! USE ONLY THE DRUGS PRESCRIBED BY YOUR BOSS OR SUPERVISOR. SHUT UP, BE HAPPY! OBEY ALL ORDERS WITHOUT QUESTION. THE COMFORTS YOU DEMANDED ARE NOW MANDATORY. BE HAPPY. AT LAST EVERYTHING IS DONE FOR YOU." (JELLO BIAFRA)
:sun:


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: trendal]
    #3441629 - 12/03/04 12:12 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Yes, but you'll have to be careful not to trip over the other floor-sleepers I'm sure to gather :wink:

If the shit really does hit the fan, Jacques, I'll be looking for people like you to group up with.




Excellent. :wink: I just hope I can make it over the border... with all this new "border control technology" the U.S. is planning to implement, I think it is pretty obvious that it is meant to work both ways... keep foreigners out, and keep us in. :frown:


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3441667 - 12/03/04 12:23 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

"Where do we draw the line? Isn't this wrong on many levels?"

This is yet another step in the process. It is absolutely frightening that the line can be redrawn so easily. It is downright scary that the majority of people support the process.

Remember the sayings, "power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely" and "the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it"?
The control the Republicans have now with the recent election is fast approaching absolute power, and where does the corruption truly end? They will get another one or two new conservative Supreme Court judges in the next four years.

I look for Arnold to be the president in 2012. Uh oh the scary year?

"Isn't this wrong on many levels?" Sure, and all these wrongs somehow end up with this being the "right" thing to do in many "moral" people's minds. "Let the ends justify the means" carried to extremes.

It's gotten far worse discussing politics than even religion. Have you ever tried to have a political conversation with a staunch NeoCon particularly one that watches Fox News all day? I mean, you had better be on the same page or it can get downright ugly.

As for packing your stuff, if you are of draftable age you may want to consider your options. This notion that the draft won't be reinstated is nonsense. Individual freedoms? Say bye bye. Martial law? If that's what it takes to remove the "undesirables", then so it shall be. I think it's safe to say Michael Moore will make the list.

In this scary situation, anything is possible. The fact that most people don't see that makes that anything even more possible.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleZippoZM
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3441715 - 12/03/04 12:37 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

JacquesCousteau said:
Quote:

trendal said:
Yes, but you'll have to be careful not to trip over the other floor-sleepers I'm sure to gather :wink:

If the shit really does hit the fan, Jacques, I'll be looking for people like you to group up with.




Excellent. :wink: I just hope I can make it over the border... with all this new "border control technology" the U.S. is planning to implement, I think it is pretty obvious that it is meant to work both ways... keep foreigners out, and keep us in. :frown:




the american canadian border is the largerst un-guarded boarder in the world, they can guard the whole thing and ill tell you why.

4 years ago i was canoeing in the boundary waters canoe area (bwca) its a whole bunch of lakes between minesota and canada.
well we were canoeing along and realised we had lost our weay, so we pulled out he map and tried to figure ou twhere we were.

lo and behold we were actually in canada !!! about a mile in. theres no stopiong the flow between these 2 countries except at the main highway border crossings.

i also need to remind you all of one thing, setp 11 2001, those planes hit the buildings, which could have been the start of a war, one we would need to have run very fast from, bombs dropping etc... They CLOSED THE BORDERS!!!  i was in mexico at the time, locked up in rehab, and im kind of glad i was.
fact of the matter is that the u.s. dosent seem to have any troubble locking down its borders when it thinks its possible a war is about to start, or attacks against americans may start.  once you want to flee, you wont have the option to do so


--------------------
PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: ZippoZ]
    #3441795 - 12/03/04 12:56 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

"once you want to flee, you wont have the option to do so "

Yeah, that was basically my point...


and yes, Lunar, I am of draftable age. That is one of many reasons I take this situation very seriously.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3441829 - 12/03/04 01:05 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

with all this new "border control technology" the U.S. is planning to implement, I think it is pretty obvious that it is meant to work both ways... keep foreigners out, and keep us in.

Don't forget that the Canada/US border is the LONGEST undefended border in the world. In many places out west, there isn't even a fence line to mark the border. You can just walk right accross, from a US farm field to a Canadian field!

So you only really have to worry if you plan on driving over the border at one of the "controlled" border crossings, I think.

Anyway, we Canadians have a history of smuggling oppressed people out of the US. Remember the Underground Railroad? I'm sure the tracks are still open for business :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3442085 - 12/03/04 01:59 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

"I am of draftable age"

The good news is that you have at least some time as the draft is probably a year or two away but you never know. 

It's a tough one, leaving your family and job.

But, if you can get a working visa in a similar job either in Canada or better yet someplace warm  :smile: it may be just the time to start checking that out.  This business of being a fugitive trying to run the border after they reinstate the draft and hanging low sounds a little bleak.  I'm sure Tren has a nice floor but wouldn't it be nice to be able to work?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3442101 - 12/03/04 02:05 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

If things go to all hell in the US, you can BET they won't be that far behind up here in Canada...

We are, in effect, a single country with two different names :smirk:

I asked someone this in IRC chat the other night, but I'll try it here, too:

How do you feel about the fact that, should things get so bad that people begin "disappearing" at the hands of the gov, you could very well be one of the ones to disappear?

I don't know how big of a file they have on me...but I'm sure if things did get that bad I would be considered a "deviant" citizen (and hence non-citizen, in the gov's eyes).


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3442711 - 12/03/04 05:18 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

Conservatives in this country have used 9/11 as an excuse to implement all sorts of changes they've been salivating over for years. In Russia, Putin used the War on terror for a big power grab as well, but even more extreme. The longer I live the more I see the meaning of what FDR said during the Great Depression: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." Fear takes otherwise sane, mature people and puts them into monkey-mode faster than you can say "GW". The terrorists cannot defeat us outright. Terrorism is the tactic of a weak power. The only thing that will defeat us is ourselves. And we are playing right into their hands.

Post 9/11 I've noticed that mainstream churches have become increasingly zealous and conservative.
The church I attended as a boy (I only attend now when I'm home with family during holidays) was once pretty mainstream. After 9/11 talk of politics is in the air, GW was practically endorsed from the pulpit for example. To me that is disgusting, but people see nothing wrong with it. Also some of the congregation have begun holding their arms heavenward somewhat reminiscent of the nazi salute.

With most major media outlets in the hands of a few large corporations, the lifeblood of democracy is becoming anemic. Unlike in the past, the network news divisions are being run as profit centers. Stories that may offend or run the risk of throwing a monkey wrench in the steadily-moving consumer conveyer belt that feeds into corporate bank accounts are squelched.

Before the war on Iraq I was astonished to see how the media and Congress just rolled over without any real debate. That was absolutely stunning to me. But the climate of fear created by 9/11 just steamrolls anyone who gets in the way. Anyone who opposes the government's methods runs the risk of being labeled "unpatriotic". To me, dissent is about as American as you can get. They need to start teaching civics and American history in school again. Sheesh!


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3442998 - 12/03/04 06:22 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Boyle said torture was against U.S. policy and any allegations of it would be "forwarded through command channels for military discipline." He added, "I don't think anything remotely like torture has occurred at Guantanamo" but noted that some U.S. soldiers there had been disciplined for misconduct, including a female interrogator who removed her blouse during questioning.




... if that's torture, sign me up.


Quote:

I look for Arnold to be the president in 2012. Uh oh the scary year?




He was born outside of the US.. and thus ineligble for the office of the President.



Anyway, here's a question. What sort of 'torture' do YOU think may be going on down in Gitmo?


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3443149 - 12/03/04 07:18 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

yes this is wrong.  they don't care though, and just think, if yahoo is actually publishing this, then what are they getting away with?

move jacque, I'm serious.  I'm attached to my family, but I'm still moving out of this country. do what you feel is right man, don't wait around for what if's.  I mean, be cautious, but don't hesitate for too long.  you do not want to be here when shit hits the fan. smuggling yourself into canada is a great idea.  I'll visit you and trendal :wink:

besides, america IS NOT the best place in the world to live in.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3443156 - 12/03/04 07:22 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

btw jacque, why not question torturing for any means as grounds to leave the land of the free and home of the political unholy lying cowardly killers?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: So evidence obtained by torture of foreigners is now admissable. [Re: kaiowas]
    #3443167 - 12/03/04 07:25 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

Yeah, cutting and running is not cowardly at all.  :smirk:

Personally, I'm not letting anyone run me out of my own country. I'm going to stay and try to change things as difficult as it may be!


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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