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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Reason vs Faith
    #3438809 - 12/02/04 07:15 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

This is something I've often struggled with. I consider myself somewhere between the two. I can definitely see the merits of skepticism and suspended judgement, but I just can't seem to fully embrace agnosticism in spiritual matters. I am somewhat agnostic in the sense that I'm not 100% sure about anything, but I also have had experiences which lead me to believe certain things which cannot be backed by empirical evidence. I have also had experiences which lead me to believe things which I can't even articulate, let alone test. From a rational, scientific standpoint, I have no reason to believe many of the things I believe. And yet I do. Is it as self-deceptive to be inclined towards certain beliefs as it is to be convinced of them?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: silversoul7]
    #3438862 - 12/02/04 07:26 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

is it not said that those who live by 'reason' have faith in it?

and those who live by 'faith', have reason for it?

These terms, like many others, seem to only confuse and seperate what is infinitly and eternally one and the same.

Escape words and see what there is :cool:


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Anonymous

Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: silversoul7]
    #3438923 - 12/02/04 07:37 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

Skepticism should be steadfast. Don't let one or even two experiences change your inclination toward any belief. IMO, it's most advantageous to be a skeptic until you're absolutely sure of something, either because there's objective observable evidence pointing to the validity of a concept, or the concept has repeatedly shown it's validity through apparent self-evidence ("anecdotal" recurrance).


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: ]
    #3438975 - 12/02/04 07:47 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

all things fall apart


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: silversoul7]
    #3438990 - 12/02/04 07:50 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

Spirituality in its real sense is transrational and transpersonal.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3439010 - 12/02/04 07:56 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

and is within and without everything and nothing. even ignorance to its truth in part, is a part, of said truth.

so what me worry? :laugh:


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: silversoul7]
    #3439018 - 12/02/04 07:58 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

It is not self deceptive to be inclined towards certain beliefs as long as you understand where it's coming from.

Actually, I kind of take that back.

It is impossible to be totally free of self deception. The trick is to try and realize when you're deceiving yourself. Do you believe something to be true for emotional, or rational reasons?

It's best to constantly question your assumptions about things.

I don't see any problem with toying with fanciful ideas, but I find it even more fun to rationalize them away, and have them replaced again with something new.

If you can put yourself in the mindstate of believing one thing is true, then are able to abandon it with logic, and replace it with another even more crazy idea...

by that point you should be having a blast!

Just don't let the crazy ideas take over. Rational thinking will get you further than emotional thinking.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: Phluck]
    #3439181 - 12/02/04 08:29 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

Well really reason and faith both are faulty at describing the truth. Neither of these things is an adequete method for knowledge, since they are beliefs and not experiences!

I think faith is probobly better suited however because it can put you at ease and help you let go of control. However, reason is also an extremely usefull tool for dispelling fear and delusion.

Each in and of itself is not necessarily beneficial and can cause many problems. If you have a crisis of faith or an experience you cannot explain rationally these modes will fail you. You must use both together as tools, for that is all they really are. The truth is just the truth.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: silversoul7]
    #3439188 - 12/02/04 08:31 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

Reason vs Faith

I try and have a balance between the two.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3439189 - 12/02/04 08:31 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
You must use both together as tools, for that is all they really are.




And that, my friends, is the wisest sentence I've read all night.

I agree in full, and always attempt to carry out this sentiment in my day to day life.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: MOTH]
    #3439191 - 12/02/04 08:32 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

I try and have a balance between the two.

:smile: Ellemysh, have I told you lately that you totally kick ass?!  :heart:  :thumbup: :grin:


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3439195 - 12/02/04 08:33 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

I think faith is probobly better suited however because it can put you at ease and help you let go of control.

That can be a good thing... but what does this have to do with making faith better at describing the truth? This is akin to saying a certain car is better at going fast because it has more comfortable seats.

I don't see why you *must* use both of them.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3439209 - 12/02/04 08:35 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

JacquesCousteau said:
:smile: Ellemysh, have I told you lately that you totally kick ass?!  :heart:  :thumbup: :grin:




:ass:

:blush: :grin:


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: Phluck]
    #3439245 - 12/02/04 08:43 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
I don't see why you *must* use both of them.




No one said you "must"... obviously it's been done with just one or the other many many times over.

But in order to have the most balanced and whole perspective possible from a subjecting viewpoint, one must be able to apply each when needed.

They basicalled "keep eachother in check"... when my logic side is being so logical that it's keeping me from just sitting back and observing the beauty around me, it is time for a reality check. And that reality check comes from my "faith" side. (Which really has nothing to do with the traditionalistic definiton of faith.. just a convenient word to use for the time being)

Vice versa, when my mind is running amock and coming up with lots of crazy ideas of what "might be" it is ALSO time for a reality check. And THAT reality check comes from my logic side.

Does this make any sense to you? I am trying to explain why I feel that my two modes of thought essentially keep eachother in check, and therefore balanced.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: MOTH]
    #3439251 - 12/02/04 08:44 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

I compliment you and you moon me, what's that all about? :wink:


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3439281 - 12/02/04 08:50 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

I've always been a streaker!  :wink:


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: MOTH]
    #3439370 - 12/02/04 09:10 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

People seem to have this idea that when used in the religious context "faith" means "blindness", that faith indicates acceptance of ideas without critical analysis. To be faithful to a religion, however, means that there is devotion to the principles and ethics upheld by that religion, and some amount of investment in the benefits of adhering to that discipline. To adopt a religion without dedicating one's self to it's heart, to practice the letter of the law while refusing to investigate it's spirit, is to be completely without faith.

So then, to be effective in pursuit of any religious or mystical end, one must be absolutely stringent in their logic, true to themselves, and always certain that their discipline is adopted because they themselves are aware of the benefits. A person cannot have faith without allegience to reason: abandonment of reason is abandonment of faith.

How can a person believe in something without gaining some direct experience of it? "Faith", in the religious context, is the willingness to engage in a discipline that generates direct experience. It is that devotion. Devoting one's self a belief system without investigating it for it's value is lazy, faithless, and hypocritical.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: Ped]
    #3439385 - 12/02/04 09:15 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

Thank you, Ped, I think that builds nicely upon my post...

Specifically this part:
And that reality check comes from my "faith" side. (Which really has nothing to do with the traditionalistic definiton of faith.. just a convenient word to use for the time being)

By "traditionalistic definition of faith" I meant the concept of faith = blind faith, basically.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3439474 - 12/02/04 09:32 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that both sides are so separate. You can be wildly creative and appreciative of the beauty in life without abandoning logic whatsoever.

I think that separating the two into "two modes of thought" is applying an unnecessary interpretation of how we're thinking.

I'm too tired to make any sense right now though, I'm gonna watch some TV...


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Reason vs Faith [Re: Phluck]
    #3439496 - 12/02/04 09:34 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

Without that seperation as a means of identification, the line blurs and one loses track of when they are in logic and when they are not. And this is not a good thing, as far as I am concerned.

Furthermore, the seperation I'm speaking of is quasi-literal... I am fully capable of existing in both modes of thought at once... I just think of them as seperate modes for the sake of clarity.


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