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Invisiblesilversoul7
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John 3:16
    #3437588 - 12/02/04 03:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life




I noticed that in Freak's sig, and it got me thinking. If God is all-powerful, why did he have to kill his only begotten son in order to give us everlasting life? Did he intend to make it harder on us? Was he trying to trick people into going to hell so he could save space in heaven? Seems to me that basing admittance into heaven on whether or not one believes in a highly questionable story(which story, though? The Gospels tell slightly different versions of it) with little credible evidence is not the act of a kind, loving god. It seems to me that a God who loves us all would love us unconditionally, and want us all to have everlasting life. Why would such a God set up a system in which skepticism, reason, and suspended judgement are punished with eternal damnation, while gullibility and blind obedience are rewarded?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleCherryBomM
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Re: John 3:16 [Re: silversoul7]
    #3437605 - 12/02/04 03:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Freaks sig is the hot topic of conversation this afternoon.


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: John 3:16 [Re: silversoul7]
    #3437626 - 12/02/04 03:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Hey SS, as it was my quote that inspired the creation of this thread it is only fair that i at least TRY to answer some of the questions you posed to the best of my ability. I am out for a bit but i'd at least like to respond to one B4 i leave. It is my understanding that God sent Jesus to earth knowing full well and that he would be crucified by the political powers of the day and through the blood(and resurrection) of Jesus that it would redeem mankind in that he could be saved(made correct in his relation with God) by accepting God's son Jesus as one's personal Lord and saviour

Have a GR8 day  :sun: :heart: :sun: :thumbup: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: John 3:16 [Re: CherryBom]
    #3437649 - 12/02/04 03:27 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I knew my new sig would spark some discussion, mercifully none of it has decsended to the petty bickering and name calling that people that have personal differences often resort to, especially regarding politics and religion. As Jesus is all about love,peace and forgivness here's hoping things stay civil  :smile:


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Registered: 04/24/04
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Re: John 3:16 [Re: silversoul7]
    #3437680 - 12/02/04 03:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

God sent his son...........

to show Man that a Man can live as God intended. That a Man can endure what ever it takes to be close to God.

Now I will add that Jesus was God living as a man to understand.

God had to show what God would do as a Man.

To be the example of what can be done through living in pure love. To show man the even in death Love is the most powerful thing over all.

To put others before yourself is Love.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: John 3:16 [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3437723 - 12/02/04 03:42 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

FreakQlibrium said:
Hey SS, as it was my quote that inspired the creation of this thread it is only fair that i at least TRY to answer some of the questions you posed to the best of my ability. I am out for a bit but i'd at least like to respond to one B4 i leave. It is my understanding that God sent Jesus to earth knowing full well and that he would be crucified by the political powers of the day and through the blood(and resurrection) of Jesus that it would redeem mankind in that he could be saved(made correct in his relation with God) by accepting God's son Jesus as one's personal Lord and saviour

Have a GR8 day  :sun: :heart: :sun: :thumbup: :thumbup:



Yes, I get that, but what I don't get is why he required Jesus' blood in order to save us.  He created the universe, so he must have created the rules governing the universe, and if he's all-powerful, he must be able to bypass or bend those rules whenever he chooses.  An all-powerful being would surely be able to save all of mankind, and an all-loving God would surely be inclined to do so.  Since nothing can oppose God's will, then an all-loving, all-forgiving God would surely save us all unconditionally.  Seems to me that if it is true that salvation can only be attained through faith in Christ, then God can either be all-loving or all-powerful, but cannot be both.  Or perhaps he was simply ignorant, and it did not occur to him that he could save us without sacrificing his son.  This, of course, would wipe out the all-knowing part of the equation.  I personally am inclined to believe that we have an incomplete understanding of God, and thus do not see the full picture here, and that the truth is much more complex than we ever imagined.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: John 3:16 [Re: silversoul7]
    #3437733 - 12/02/04 03:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You do not understand what Love is.

Love has to include a choice. IF God just made everything perfect he would not experience Love.

In order to Love you make choices.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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OfflineMrBump
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Re: John 3:16 [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3437734 - 12/02/04 03:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

thanks, that was a helpful and insightful response.


--------------------
If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all.

There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn.

Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: John 3:16 [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3437738 - 12/02/04 03:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
God sent his son...........

to show Man that a Man can live as God intended. That a Man can endure what ever it takes to be close to God.

Now I will add that Jesus was God living as a man to understand.

God had to show what God would do as a Man.

To be the example of what can be done through living in pure love. To show man the even in death Love is the most powerful thing over all.

To put others before yourself is Love.



I certainly could see Jesus as setting an example for everyone, but why would doing so require that we believe the stories written about him as fact, and not allegory? Is it inconcievable that someone could live like Christ without believing the literal account of his resurrection? Why should such a person not be saved?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: John 3:16 [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3437748 - 12/02/04 03:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
You do not understand what Love is.

Love has to include a choice. IF God just made everything perfect he would not experience Love.

In order to Love you make choices.



I would think love would also include second chances. Since I won't know for sure whether or not you're right about all this until after I die, it seems rather unfair that I be sent to perish for eternity without a chance to learn from my mistake.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: John 3:16 [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3437779 - 12/02/04 03:55 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
God sent his son...........

to show Man that a Man can live as God intended. That a Man can endure what ever it takes to be close to God.




Sounds like a scam to me. I think Jesus and God ripped millions out of trillions of money by playing some spiritual three card monty. :lol:

After all, Jesus, as God's son, is far too close to him to be held as an independant "winner" of the game.... :smirk: He's the inside man that, by "winning", provokes all of you suckers to waste your money. :wink:

Another way to look at it is that Jesus is the snobby, rich punk that is living off of his father's fortune. He is not capable of any real work and simply gets by on God's success. Jesus' own "success" is merely a presentation powered by his father's money. :grin:

:lol: :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Registered: 04/24/04
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Re: John 3:16 [Re: silversoul7]
    #3437801 - 12/02/04 03:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The answers you are missing can only be found through a Daily Prayer life. How can you get to know God without talking to him.


Example......
It is kinda silly to say " Hey why won't that girl love me and I can't move in with her? I want a second chance!!! "

What are you talking about you want a second chance you never took the time to even talk to her. No you can not move in with her. Your a stranger.

God wants to hear from you. God want you to come to him in private and Believe in him. If you show your face to him he will show his face to you. Simple


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: John 3:16 [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3437821 - 12/02/04 04:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

This is hard for me to say........... :heart:

You are lacking any real spiritual life. It is very plain.

Your posts are for the most part disrespectful and show a complete absence of any truth.

If you continue to really on your own understanding then you will never experience real growth.

I suggest that you develope a Prayer life and seek God in what ever way makes you comfortable.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: John 3:16 [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3437832 - 12/02/04 04:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
Example......
It is kinda silly to say " Hey why won't that girl love me and I can't move in with her? I want a second chance!!! "

What are you talking about you want a second chance you never took the time to even talk to her. No you can not move in with her. Your a stranger.



Wait a minute...I thought God did love us and know us. Are you saying God doesn't know and love his own creations? I thought he was supposed to love us unconditionally.

Quote:

God wants to hear from you. God want you to come to him in private and Believe in him. If you show your face to him he will show his face to you. Simple



Isn't God omnipresent? I thought he saw me and heard from me no matter what. Why do I have to be addressing him directly? What if I have nothing to say to him?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: John 3:16 [Re: silversoul7]
    #3437870 - 12/02/04 04:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Yes he does but you must make the choice to find him. While he may know about you. You know nothing about him.

You must make the choice to find him and he will give you wisdom and understanding.

It is a two way street.

Love is a two way street. You must step up and make an effort to know him.

If you have nothing to say to him. You are making the decision to reject him.

Just as you reject a fat ugly girl.............LOL, lord forgive me..LOL

Well you might like a fat ugly girl but, I hope you get the idea

God does love you unconditionally but that does not mean you have a relationship. God wants to be your friend. He want you to get to know him so you may understand and gain wisdom of his ways


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: John 3:16 [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3437902 - 12/02/04 04:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Is God's love unconditional, or is it not? If he loves us unconditionally, then he would love us whether or not we sought him out. Why did he create Hell anyway? Why do we deserve to be punished so harshly for not believing? Why couldn't he open up heaven for everyone? Is there not enough room?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: John 3:16 [Re: silversoul7]
    #3437940 - 12/02/04 04:27 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You do not understand the real facts of LOVE

It not to say your bad in anyway, Not at all.

It is like this............... I as a person can chose to love the poor of this world and I do. I can choose to go out of my way to provide for a crackhead who beats his old lady. I can give them food a car and never meet them. I love them despite what choices they make. I can tell them in a letter " If you do not change your ways you are going to die or end up in prison"

This person can take my gifts and wisdom and shit on my cake. But I still chose to send him cash while he is in prison for killing his old lady. I love him unconditionally.

He still hates life, he still hates himself, he has his rewards. He still has a Chance to get to know me. All he has to do is write me a letter.


See it is very possible to love unconditionally and the receiver of this love hates me. But there is nothing I can do to make him love me. He has to make the choice to start a relationship with me.


Do you understand?

God does not punish you or send you to hell. You do that yourself. The help you need to get to heaven and God is right there for you to take.

It is your choice not Gods


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: John 3:16 [Re: silversoul7]
    #3437960 - 12/02/04 04:30 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I think those are very valid questions you are asking SS7. I remember when I was first being educated in Christianity as a child, all the little children in Sunday School were full of questions like that. We never got straight answers, just runaround responses. I thought it was because the adults never really "knew" the answers, sort of like the blind leading the blind. That is just my experience with this sort of thing...I am open to hearing what everyone has to say.

I also appreciate Fucknuckles feedback about this. Hopefully this discussion can continue without the rancor that has infested other threads of this type.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: John 3:16 [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3437968 - 12/02/04 04:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
You are lacking any real spiritual life. It is very plain.

Your posts are for the most part disrespectful and show a complete absence of any truth.

If you continue to really on your own understanding then you will never experience real growth.

I suggest that you develope a Prayer life and seek God in what ever way makes you comfortable.




:lol: :lol: :lol:

Who are you to judge, proclaimed Christian? Do you have a spiritual understanding of the very same religion you claim to be a member of? I'm surprised you found a stone to chuck when you seem to have.. something in your eye... and everything... :wink:

Fireworks_god's posts showing a complete absence of truth? Survey says (poll at bottom):



Whose understanding am I suspossed to RELY upon? Yours? How can a human being have any understanding outside of his own?

And THEN you tell me to, essentially, develop a spiritual life in my own unique way. Hmm..... hhhhhm....... perhaps, after all, that is what I have done? Who are you to understand and know who I am and my spiritual path? It seems you have basically no evidence to define these things, and even less right to actually judge my path. Jesus is not concrete.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:
Is there truth to my posts?
You may choose only one
ALL Truth?
Some truth?
No truth?
Truth? Eh? What's that?


Votes accepted from (12/02/04 04:31 PM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: John 3:16 [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3437990 - 12/02/04 04:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Your poll is a intresting point you have made. The very fact that you need to have yourself stamped in approval and you ego needs to be reaffirmed says a lot, all by itself.

You alone are making my observations as clear as the sky.

I only wish that you may see some positive light in my remarks. In no way am I trying to tear you down But, to build you up


You also said " How can a man have any understanding outsied of his own"

Simple you seek god in prayer and get to know him and then you becomw aware of his wisdom. He will allow you to understand past yourself.

I have made no judgements on you. I have shown you love and some truth.

You are correct you can not understand things outside yourself alone. You will need help from he that knows all.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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