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InvisibleLifenergy
Yo Mama

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 766
America Was NOT Founded On Christianity
    #3435156 - 12/01/04 11:42 PM (12 years, 12 days ago)

As a matter of fact, most of the Founding Fathers weren't even Christian themselves, but deists or other. Read http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/founders.htm

Also The Treaty of Tripoli from 1797 states in Article 11:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

This treaty was made for the sole intention of informing other countries that America was not, in fact, a Christian country.
I am tired of hearing that these days, as I'm sure many of you are. Here is your response to those who perpetuate this myth, and use Christianity to justify war and the loss of personal freedom. I am not anti-Christian, but I am opposed to the way that people use it. Peace.


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Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.


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OfflineFrog
Warrior
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
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Re: America Was NOT Founded On Christianity [Re: Lifenergy]
    #3435166 - 12/01/04 11:45 PM (12 years, 12 days ago)

Was too. 

:grin:

Okay, they all believed in God, they just didn't believe in any one religion.  They believed that everyone should be able to believe in God of their choice, I think.  I could be wrong.  Don't make me have to go look this up.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
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Re: America Was NOT Founded On Christianity [Re: Lifenergy]
    #3435202 - 12/01/04 11:52 PM (12 years, 12 days ago)

Well first I haven't heard anybody using Christianity to justify war, that seems to be a creative extrapolation of a certain segment of the political spectrum. Personal freedom, ok.

But anyway, the Founders were a lot more Christian than it seems you are, or the common person is today. Of course they were completely different than today's Christians, but their value system was much more traditional and virtue based than ours is today.

Despite this, when the nation was founded Christianity was the main religion behind American culture. As a result we have a chaplian for the congress, our money says In God We Trust, and most of our nations oaths, and even the Declaration of Independence mention God quite a bit. We also have some of the countries founding members such as George Washington declaring that America must be led by a fear of God. This country was not founded by Pat Robertson, but it was not founded by Bertrand Russel either.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: America Was NOT Founded On Christianity [Re: Frog]
    #3435207 - 12/01/04 11:53 PM (12 years, 12 days ago)

No you are correct Frog


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleLifenergy
Yo Mama

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 766
Re: America Was NOT Founded On Christianity [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3435260 - 12/02/04 12:06 AM (12 years, 12 days ago)

That what I was saying. They had a belief in God, but the USA is not a country founded on the Christian religion. It got to me when I heard someone on the news tonight saying that America was a Christian country and that it was founded as a Christian country.
The Declaration Of Independence does, but was not a document of law.
The Constitution, however, which is the law the country is based upon, does not mention God, and for good reason.
In God We Trust did not appear on money until 1956.That was because of McCarthyism. And anyway, "God" is not solely a Christian thing, so what does that mean anyway?
Values are part of every religion, not just Christianity. It just bothers me that most Christians around here are pro-war. That bothers me.


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Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.


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OfflineJ4S0N
human
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Registered: 07/29/04
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Re: America Was NOT Founded On Christianity [Re: Lifenergy]
    #3435270 - 12/02/04 12:11 AM (12 years, 12 days ago)

From what I remember all but one of the founding fathers were stone masons.


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"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA


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InvisibleLifenergy
Yo Mama

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 766
Re: America Was NOT Founded On Christianity [Re: J4S0N]
    #3435276 - 12/02/04 12:14 AM (12 years, 12 days ago)

by Steven Morris, in Free Inquiry, Fall, 1995
"The Christian right is trying to rewrite the history of the United States as part of its campaign to force its religion on others. They try to depict the founding fathers as pious Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and Christianity.

This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments.


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Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.


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InvisibleLifenergy
Yo Mama

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 766
Re: America Was NOT Founded On Christianity [Re: Lifenergy]
    #3435287 - 12/02/04 12:17 AM (12 years, 12 days ago)

This is from James Madison, who incidentallt opposed the chaplain in Congress.
"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."


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Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: America Was NOT Founded On Christianity [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3437793 - 12/02/04 03:57 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

our money says In God We Trust

Get your facts straight. Our founding fathers were WAY smarter than that. It was an idiotic act of congress in 1837 that added that phrase to our money and simultaneously undermined our founding fathers' most important intent.

and most of our nations oaths

Perhaps our most important oath is the Pledge of Allegiance. It was sullied by yet another idiotic act of Congress when they foisted theism upon us all with the act that added "under God" to the Pledge in 1954.

Our founding fathers knew better than this.

and even the Declaration of Independence mention God quite a bit.

The Declaration of Independence mentions God exactly one time, and even then it refers to "Nature's God" not man's. A subtle, but important, distinction.

Our founding fathers knew better than this as evidenced by the fact that the word "God" doesn't even appear in our Constitution and the only place the Constitution even references religion in any way is to explicitly prohibit, in clear language, the imposition of religion upon any function of the government.

Our founding fathers knew what they were doing. It's unfortunate that the idiots subsequently elected to Congress didn't/don't.


Edited by Diploid (12/04/04 04:40 PM)


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InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis (Retired)
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Registered: 05/28/04
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Re: America Was NOT Founded On Christianity [Re: Diploid]
    #3437847 - 12/02/04 04:10 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

"A subtle, but important distinction. "

  :grin:


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Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


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Invisiblejux
I'm better thanan STD!

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 924
Re: America Was NOT Founded On Christianity [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3440100 - 12/02/04 11:50 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

It's unfortunately that so many people can never be bothered with subtlies or nuances


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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,481
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 2 months, 29 days
Re: America Was NOT Founded On Christianity [Re: Lifenergy]
    #3441183 - 12/03/04 09:31 AM (12 years, 10 days ago)

"nature's god" indeed...

the american deists were movers & shakers of the established order all out of proprtion to their prevalence in society at large...
& most of them were also memebers of masonic lodges as well (& many were initiated into some of the rather more ummmmmm "occult-oriented" lodges too)...

the "god" that the deists would know cannot be apprehended through the study of "revealed texts" but rather through the thorough scientific study of the world(s) around us - the ideal man (to many of these "age-of-enlightenment" revolutionaries) was one who could be called "a natural philosopher" (what we would call a "generalist scientist" today (in this, our age of incredible specialization in the sciences, yes/no?))

(no doubt this has been discussed to death on these very forums in the not-too-distant past, but i don't wanna utfse...)

(y'know philosopher/pamphleteer/freethinker thomas paine was almost executed over in france during their revolution; & when he finally settled down in the usa (for a while), his fellow townsmen (who had been mostly loyalists during the rebellion against england) contrived to keep paine from voting in the election... at least in part for his espousing "atheistic views"... sad...)







(again, anybody ever heard of nehemiah scudder? ("the prophet is coming")... uh-oh...)


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care


Edited by gnrm23 (12/03/04 09:43 AM)


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