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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Sprouting Rye
    #3432963 - 12/01/04 03:52 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

Hello folks

Since Magash is lurking atm i think its good moment to ask something about sprouting.

Q: When do we consider rye as (more or less) useless due to sprouting?

Is only the most tiny millimeter bitty of sprouting sprouting or do we have to see the rye's root real good? Hmz language barrier but I hope someone can answer this.

When the rye is still intact one can see the "root" already at the inside ready for take-off, is that already bad maybe?

And why is sprouted rye no goof for the spores/mycelium?

Thanks once more......


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OfflineSassySkiip
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3434272 - 12/01/04 08:41 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

Do you mean that your rye is germinating?
If so that would not be preferable...


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OfflineTylor
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3434583 - 12/01/04 09:53 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

germinating rye is always bad, take some tweasers and carefully pull out the sprout. If you dont the rye will sap the moisture out of your substrate.


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: SassySkiip]
    #3435705 - 12/02/04 02:18 AM (12 years, 8 days ago)

LOl serious? :wink:

Ehm and is sprouting the same as germinating? And why is that bad for us mycelium development?

When do we call a rye "a sprouting piece of rye less usefull for us growers? ". I mean is it like when the rye has opened and the rootpin is looking for soil to root in, or is it already when you see IN the rye-kernel that its going to sprout.


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: Tylor]
    #3435713 - 12/02/04 02:20 AM (12 years, 8 days ago)

Yeah but WHEN do we consider rye sprouted? And WHY is sprouting / germinating bad?

Do you know that?

Thanks,


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3435986 - 12/02/04 03:55 AM (12 years, 8 days ago)

soaking is overrated, dont soak and you wont have to worry about sprouts

oh, and my guess is that sprouts are bad since they are plant matter subject to decomposition, and will end up getting pretty nasty during colonization.


Edited by fresh313 (12/02/04 03:57 AM)


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Offlinelesstutrey
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: fresh313]
    #3435991 - 12/02/04 04:01 AM (12 years, 8 days ago)

to fresh: soaking isn't that overrated. Its germinates the endospores and makes them much easier to kill in the PC.. 12 hours seems to be what most recomend, and when it comes to sterility, its always a good idea to be as caucious as possible.

to friend: if it sprouts and grows in your casing they'll suck up water and nutrients, and thats not preferable.


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: lesstutrey]
    #3436063 - 12/02/04 05:23 AM (12 years, 8 days ago)

Yeah but simmer & PC will kill them.


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3436067 - 12/02/04 05:28 AM (12 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomFriend said:
Yeah but simmer & PC will kill them.




Couldn't have said it better myself.


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OfflineTheGreatButtPaca
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: fresh313]
    #3436068 - 12/02/04 05:32 AM (12 years, 8 days ago)

Your right.
Any sprout of any kind will die in the PC.
Don't worry too much just try to avoid it!


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InvisibleMagashM
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: TheGreatButtPaca]
    #3436073 - 12/02/04 05:38 AM (12 years, 8 days ago)

Sprouts will die in the pc and turn the substrate to mush.

Soaking is done to let the endo spores germ cause there is no way a pc can come close to doing it since it takes over 400F to kill em.


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OfflineTheGreatButtPaca
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: Magash]
    #3436074 - 12/02/04 05:39 AM (12 years, 8 days ago)

Amen.

The man has spoken.


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InvisibleMagashM
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: TheGreatButtPaca]
    #3436078 - 12/02/04 05:43 AM (12 years, 8 days ago)

You have to get into temprature ranges that a PC can't reach to kill endospores.

He he he...I tried to not be boaring again but oh well here goes.

The definition of an endospore is an extremely heat-and chemical-resistant, dormant, thick-walled spore that develops within bacteria. Endospores are extraordinarily resistant to environmental stresses including heat, UV radiation, gamma radiation, chemical disinfectants, and desiccation. Endospores can remain viable for thousands of years or longer. An example of this are some endospores that were found on Dominican bees that had been encased in amber for 25 - 40 million years. These dormant structures can be found in several different types of bacteria: Bacillus, Clostridium, and Sporosarcina. I will be trying to isolate Bacillus in my experiment, and after isolation prove that it is indeed an endospore forming bacterium by getting it to transform into its dormant/ spore state.

Bacillus is a gram-positive aerobe that can be found in soil. It appears as straight rods 0.5 - 2.5 x 1.2 - 10 mm, and is chemoorganotrophic, which means that it gets its energy by oxidizing chemical compounds, and organic molecules are its electron source.

Here are some examples of spore forming bacteria out in the world: Clostridium perfringens and Clostridium botulinum (both anaerobes) are food poisoning microorganisms. C. perfringens commonly occurs in meats that have been heated (O2 depletion) and then slowly cooled. As these are ingested the cells sporulate in the intestine, producing an enterotoxin that causes symptoms of nausea, diarrhea, and abdominal cramps. C. botulinum is found on potatoes that are not heated sufficiently and cause the production of toxins. Bacillus cereus is another spore forming bacterium that also is found on starchy foods like rice. Its symptoms are similar to those of C. perfringens.

Microorganisms are also used in bioterrorism. One such spore forming bacterium is Bacillus anthracis which results in anthrax. This organism's endospores can survive for decades in animal products and soil. It can enter the body through cuts and abrasions (cutaneous anthrax), or by inhaling endospores (pulmonary anthrax). Symptoms resemble that of the flu, and if it invades the bloodstream the disease can be fatal.

Vancomycin is an antibiotic that is bactericidal for some forms of Bacillus and Clostridium, as well as other microorganisms. It works by binding to the D-alanine-D-alanine sequence so the peptide interbridge cannot be formed. This results in the formation of weak peptidoglycan which eventually leads to the cells lysing because of osmotic differences.

Sporulation is the process by which an active vegetative cell turns into its dormant spore state. This occurs because of a lack of nutrients, or because the cell was exposed to environmental stress. There are several steps to the process which are discussed below:
Formation of nuclear filament within the vegetative cell.
Cell membrane folds inward enclosing part of the DNA and forming the septum.
Continuation of the cell membrane to fold inward and engulf the immature spore.
Spore cortex is formed in the space between the two membranes.
A protein coat is developed around the cortex.
The spore continues to mature within the sporangium (mother cell).
Lysis of sporangium and release of spore.

For a spore to go back to its active vegetative cell state, it goes through a process called germination. Amino acids and sugars are two examples of the nutrients that can trigger germination. This involves the spore swelling, either the absorption or rupture of the spore coat, loss of heat/chemical resistance, the release of spore components, and increased metabolic activity. The third stage, outgrowth, follows germination. This involves the synthesis of new components, and emergence from the spore coat ready to develop into an active bacterium.


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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: Magash]
    #3436090 - 12/02/04 06:08 AM (12 years, 8 days ago)

"For a spore to go back to its active vegetative cell state, it goes through a process called germination. Amino acids and sugars are two examples of the nutrients that can trigger germination."

Is water a nutrient that triggers germination?


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: fresh313]
    #3436091 - 12/02/04 06:10 AM (12 years, 8 days ago)

Yeah fresh so I still wonder why sprouting is bad and at which state of sprouting it becomes bad....


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3437342 - 12/02/04 02:34 PM (12 years, 8 days ago)

Some sprouts can be used..once sprouted they start converting sugars to starches..I think this is it. Someone told me once what the process is..IIRC thats why though..myc needs the sugars and starches will mush and clump. Minor sprouts are fine...I've used rye starting to sprout..If it goes more then a day after sprouting though its probably converted to many sugars to starches.

Seeds store food for the baby plant until it can get it from the soil...this happens pretty quickly so I believe germination takes away alot of the nutrious part of the rye and transforms it into energy it can use which myc cant use.

Water is not a nutrient..though most water contains some sort of nutes which is why things can germinate on it. But sterile distilled water wont germinate anything.


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"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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InvisibleMagashM
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: fresh313]
    #3437658 - 12/02/04 03:29 PM (12 years, 8 days ago)

Water alone isn't. Many kinds of bacteria travel in water. When they land or come up against something that has the nutrients they are looking for that in combination cause the bacteria or any contam for that matter to germ.


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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?


:growingweed: Join us at the Growery! :growingweed:


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3437662 - 12/02/04 03:29 PM (12 years, 8 days ago)

Thanks all, I think I have some more view on the subject, sprout causing mush when PC-d also Scatmans experience is usefull here. Since my Rye was about to sprout, one can see that when the points of the rye start forming "mini roots", I had some worries.

Besides the worries I am always a person who wants to understand things. Sprouting is bad, WHY is that so, is what I think then.
Ok I think I will be fine!


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: Magash]
    #3440777 - 12/03/04 03:05 AM (12 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Magash said:
Water alone isn't. Many kinds of bacteria travel in water. When they land or come up against something that has the nutrients they are looking for that in combination cause the bacteria or any contam for that matter to germ.




What im trying to prove is that soaking grains isnt a useful procedure since there arent nutrients in water to provide the necessary environment for an endospore to germinate.

That simmering and PC'ing is all that is necessary to prepare and sterilize grains effectively.


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Invisibleagar
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Re: Sprouting Rye [Re: fresh313]
    #3440909 - 12/03/04 04:11 AM (12 years, 7 days ago)

I have added 2 cups of compost tea or dung tea to every WBS room temp soak I have ever done (5 X 5 gallon buckets at a pop). That provides the nutes endospores need to germinate, plus adds significant N to WBS content.

Commercial growers don't simmer, they soak. What's that tell you?
 



:tongue2: :thumbup:


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