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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Karo to Caramel
    #3431891 - 12/01/04 08:32 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Hey dear shroomers,

I think my karo is caramelizing everytime. Now even with a towel in the PC it still goes in clear and comes out with (very, like 1/20 of an inch) small chunks on the bottom.

Anyone has other suggestions to make the Karo contam free?
I read that lemon_w just poors boiling water in tje karo jar and then quickly puts the lid on... Must I do that then?


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3431895 - 12/01/04 08:34 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Try reducing your Pc time.


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: doc34]
    #3431902 - 12/01/04 08:37 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Forgot to mention that it is a small 150ML jar, which I fill with 100ML water and a teaspoon of (dark!) Kornsyrup. Havent found a light version yet here.

And I put it in the PC for only 5 minutes now but still... :frown: Can it be something else then caramel?


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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3431907 - 12/01/04 08:38 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

There is your problem = --> DARK karo!


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: doc34]
    #3431911 - 12/01/04 08:40 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Is it? If so, why, do you know that?

I asked about it before and the only thing about it "they" said would be that it is less clear so one cant see the difference between mycelium/contams very easy...


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3431921 - 12/01/04 08:46 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

From my exp.,dark karo seems to caramelize way more than clear-I don't know if it is the color or what,but I don't like it for that reason.Seems everytime I use it, it caramelizes on me.
Honey does the same also-but it works good if you don't let it caramelize.But thats another topic,lol.


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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3431922 - 12/01/04 08:46 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Try a teaspoon of DEXTROSE (corn sugar) & a teaspoon of light dry malt (you find at beer & wine brewing stores)to a quart of water. Boil slightly on stove top to disolve, strain through a double coffee filter. Then, pour half into 2 pint jars, PC 15 minutes.

Karo is made of corn sugar. Sometimes with additives.


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: doc34]
    #3431940 - 12/01/04 08:54 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Ok i have some popcorns left with a bit mycelium on them Ill put them in the jars I just made, Ill see.
In the meantime will look for light syrup and dextrose&malt.

Thanks men!


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: agar]
    #3431943 - 12/01/04 08:55 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks Agar, now hell of a job to find a brwerystore! :laugh:

We dont have the brand Karo here, I bought Cornsyrup in a eko-store. I checked the bottle, actually its Corn/Barley syrup, but no additives only barley and corn.


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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3431965 - 12/01/04 09:02 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomFriend said:
Thanks Agar, now hell of a job to find a brwerystore! :laugh:

We dont have the brand Karo here, I bought Cornsyrup in a eko-store. I checked the bottle, actually its Corn/Barley syrup, but no additives only barley and corn.




Sounds like that would work FINE.

Try this. Place 2 teaspoons of that, in a quart of water & simmer it on the stove (very light boil). Then strain through coffee filters & use.


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: agar]
    #3432000 - 12/01/04 09:15 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks Agar, making me a bit happy again! :laugh:

I think barley is used for making malt isnt it, or can any grain become malt? At least the use barley for beer! :wink:

Ok after the strain through coffeefilter I must still PC it I guess?


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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3432012 - 12/01/04 09:19 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Always PC any liquid culture, prior to innoc.
Otherwise, you always get contam's.


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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: agar]
    #3432024 - 12/01/04 09:22 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Nice pic agar--what strain?


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: agar]
    #3432043 - 12/01/04 09:29 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Yes sure  but... ah 4get it.. (you said use it :grin: )

The coffee filter part is to make the karo more clear?


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Edited by MushroomFriend (12/01/04 09:31 AM)

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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3432087 - 12/01/04 09:42 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Heating on stove first, then filtering with Coffee filter is to remove any thing that caramelizes, or solidifies into little peices, in the liquid.


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: agar]
    #3432094 - 12/01/04 09:46 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup: thanks agarilla! :laugh:

Will def. try that!


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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: agar]
    #3432114 - 12/01/04 09:53 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

you can often find malts at the local health food stores (at least here in western canada in any case).

tke


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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: theknighterrant]
    #3432267 - 12/01/04 10:39 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Could it be anything unhealthy?


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Edited by elgr (02/04/06 12:00 AM)

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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #3432304 - 12/01/04 10:50 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I have dark syrup, then its normal when the karo is somewhat yellow. I read that Karowater with the real light karo syrup should be rather clear almost waterlike if you use 1tsp on 100ML.
LL OF THIS FROM READING NOT FROM OWN XPERIENCE.

And to be honest I dont know how exactly one can see if it is caramelized.
But everytime my karo jars have very very tiny dustlike parts on teh bottom, I am afraid it is caramel.


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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3433941 - 12/01/04 05:17 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

If you're using a dark syrup, the only way you will be able to tell if it is caramelized is if it is darker when it comes out. Obviously the water is going to be a yellowish color with dark syrup just by itself.

Try PCing at 10PSI for 25 minutes or something. Sugars caramelize due to temperature and length of time at that temperature.

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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: discman1]
    #3433992 - 12/01/04 05:28 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

If the lids aren't air tight... carmelization smells too.


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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #3434098 - 12/01/04 05:53 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

elgr said:
Must there be chunks to consider it carmelized to the point of it being unhealthy?

I've been having problems (I think) lately. It turns out slightly yellowish, where as the first time it was clear. But I've never had anything remotely chunky, just a yellowish tint. Have I been dumping them out and retrying for no reason?




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you are using light karo, or dextrose, fluid should be clear. If DARK, lots carnalized. But, so long as you have no chunks in it. It should still work.

I use dextrose & light dry malt, level teaspoon each to a quart of water, simmer, filter (coffee filters), then add to jar & PC. Light dry malt turns it slightly yellow, like a very light diluted beer.

Lemme tell ya, though. It will grow myc so thick it will plug a syringe, trying to suck it out.

That is why I always put a couple pieces of thick glass shards in the jar. So, after myc gets thich, I can swirl it & they help cut up the myc, so, I can suck it out - with a syringe.

agar


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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: agar]
    #3434140 - 12/01/04 06:10 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Perhaps darker malt has a higher sugar concentrate? Tiny particles on the collecting on the bottom of the jar = carmel. Gl all
I've tried darker colors but they never really work for me, I'm not big on liquid cultures but it sounds fastinating, too bad i've yet to get it to work!=) lol, oh well, GL

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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #3434155 - 12/01/04 06:18 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

If you are set up with flow-hood? The GREAT thing about liquid culture is. You can skip grain or WBS spawn. Just innoc, toss & mix with compost substrate, cover & it will colonize like wildfire. If I recall right, Mycofile's Bulk Neglect tek was done with liquid culture?


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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: agar]
    #3434289 - 12/01/04 06:44 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I burn my karo till it's about black then i strain it with a coffee filter while it's still boiling into jar. I get wicked fast colonization!!!!


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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: NOS4A2]
    #3434369 - 12/01/04 07:04 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Always PC any liquid culture, prior to innoc.
Otherwise, you always get contam's.




i microwave my liquid every time. i cannot get it to not carmelize in a PC. Realisticly you cannot get high fructose cornsyrup not to carmelize at 15PSI. thats 256F if i'm recalling right, and fructose caremlizes at something like 230F (i think its 230) so if the substance were to reach the actual temp of the PC it would already be caremlized. thats why i microwave and have yet to have a contam on my first 5 batches.

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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: discman1]
    #3435686 - 12/02/04 12:13 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Hey Discman thanks for your answer.

I didnt think that sugar would caramalize at boilingpoint or slightly higher as in the PC.
So you say the small dustlike pieces dont tell if it is caramelized?
Hmz ofcourse my "karo"water is kinda yellowish direct after mixing the syrup and the water.

I will keep ur post in mind next time I prepare a jar! :thumbup:


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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3445586 - 12/04/04 12:01 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Does anyone realize that you're converting starches when you boil sugar/water solutions and that the organism is going to respond differently to different carbs which is what is going to happen if you boil in diff ways and at diff times. In brewing we boil sugars for long periods of time to convert starches to something the yeast can metabolize. We never run into carmalization because we know how to boil and what ratios of sugar to H2O to use.

Maybe your solutions are a little too dry(karo heavy) and you are boiling with too hot a flame. Stirring frequently also keeps the solution heated equally and avoids hot spots where stagnant solution can get over heated.

Also try gettin her to boil and then turn the temp down quickly till you just have some light yet constant bubbling going on. Then hold that temp, stir often, and watch the color. It will turn a gold ish color which is good, just get a feel of when it is going to start to get too dark! and take it off before that point.

for a 1/2 pint jar it only takes me a half hour at the most to prepare the jar and that's not all boiling time!


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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: NOS4A2]
    #3446098 - 12/04/04 02:44 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Appreciated and interesting post NOS4A2. Though some language difficulties. Also agar reacted and told I had starches in my Karo.
But I dont know what it is, the online translation wasnt very helpfull either.

But you suggest boiling it helps transferring the "starch" ( i think that is my "flakes") into nutes? I think boiling cant cause caramelisation of fructose or other sugars. And as you say stirring should prevent that on the bottom too.

My solution was 1 tsp on 100ML.

Today I made a heavy solution (5 tblsp on 350ML) which I wanted to add to my already knocked up karo jars since someone thought I had to little karo in it.

Here is the pic you see the flakey stuff? Is that starches? It had not been boiling was just simmering. I could see the white already being dustlike pieces but while simmering (rather low flame) it formed larger clumbs.



Your comments please...:) I am getting desperate here, al my actions lead to nothing spending money and energy, result: 1 95% colonized PF cake which is in incubator 5 weeks now.


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InvisibleNOS4A2
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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3446151 - 12/04/04 03:11 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Hey friend, sounds like you got frustration

I've never used dark cornsyrup so I don't know how it works, however, I may have another route for you to take!

Try bringing plain water to a boil , then add your tablespoon of syrup stirring as you do. As soon as the syrup melts off your spoon (you're still stirring) turn off the heat and pull the pot off the burner. stirr for a few more seconds and then cover the pot while it cools down.

With this method you will be killing any contamination yet you will not give the syrup a chance to burn. You may need to use less or more syrup depending on your results. Use your own opinion on that.
As far as the color it really doesn't matter as long as your clear. I've got a jar of karo that I burned to a dark color- I innoc'ed it and it colonized just as fast as my crystal clear jar. Maybe strain it through a coffee filter while it is still boiling to take out small particles.

If that doesn't work I have one more way for you to get a clearer solution(mixture). Make up the best mixture you can and filter it using the coffe filter and fill up a jar half the way. Then fill it up the rest of the way with clear boiling WATER. By doing this you will dilute the mixture making it easier to see through.

Keep in mind that the amount of syrup you have in the water will only (this is my opinion ) determine just how much mycelium grows in your jar. With a small amount I believe you will still get growth- it may just take longer and produce smaller myceliacal puffs.

hope some of these help you out and keep looking for light syrup, I'm sure it is closer to you than you think.
Let me know how it goes.

GL
P.S. I'm not an expert by no means but I hope I'm at least helpfull.


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: NOS4A2]
    #3446218 - 12/04/04 03:40 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Yes I have some now. Asking so much doing as teks and people say and still I seem to fuck up. Spend time, energy and money almost 200? now. Ok you know the current result. Sometimes I think ow forget it let me grow my anual Northern Light outside and when I want some shrooms just visit the local smartshop and get nice cubes. 70 grams for 200?, so...

Not that I thought growin gwas cheaper it is not cause I only use shrooms in some rituals a few times year. But it seemed so cool to grow your own, see the mycelium growing, the pins then the mature friends..

Plus it  is a plus that you know where it comes from no "dirt" on it from strange people/growers or what so ever....

Anyway I will give it a last try with this syrup. If failing Ill switch to a recipy Agar gave me.

Ok bout your post now.. :laugh:

Ehm if I pour it from the stove (sterile) in the jar it can contam I dont have  a flowhood or such.
Ehm the colour I dont mind as long as mycelium grows in there. What I first though twas like spread flakey mycelium now appears to be "STARCH" as someone said.

What is that? Glue? Really have no clue. You said boiling starch converts it to something else. Can you be more specific? Is it good to save that starch? I simmerd and filtered it, "starch" all remains in teh coffee filter so the solution is clear now, but dark colour and still sweet.
Good to go?

The jars I have now I can see through, one I injected 2CC sporesyringe in, in 2 I dropped a mycelium corn, in another one I dropped a pice of mycelium cake....

I have 2CC of sporesyringe left. :frown:

Thank you very much for your helpfullness.


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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3446682 - 12/04/04 05:34 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Please don't get impatient. or sad if you know what I mean. If your making cakes, then when your mushrooms grow fruits you can make spore prints . Pick up some syringes ( check out ryvmed.com) and make spore syringes. You can make a lot of syringes from just a few mushy caps. So if the syrup thing doesn't work for you then do spore prints. Syrup is a little advanced cultivation anyways.It seems like I spent the money when I started and I did, but only because I really didn't know what I was doing!

If you ever have questions give me a bump.


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: NOS4A2]
    #3446705 - 12/04/04 05:41 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks will remember that added you to my adress book.. :thumbup:

I am lucky with the fact that a kind person here is sending me a print, hope it arrives soon.
Also I "ordered" a print from the free spore ring. And how accidental I just checked on that site you named for syringes! They are rather cheap too, so might order some there. Need gloves and mouthcap too so...

Could you tell me what that STARCH is? What is it good / bad for?

EDIT: hard that now to keep up the spirit... waiting and reading and posting...


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Edited by MushroomFriend (12/04/04 05:42 PM)

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InvisibleNOS4A2
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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3448101 - 12/04/04 10:58 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I'm glad you didn't give up!
I'll try to explain starch the best I can. (i just came in from my motorcycle workshop-a few beers in my stomach). So here goes, There are many types of starches. A starch is just a complicated group of sugars that are chemically bonded(attached) to each other. So starches are complex sugars so to speak. There are foods that have a lot of starches in them such as, potatoes, rice, and pasta. When you heat up starches the sugars that are stuck together in that starch let go of each other and you get a bunch of simple sugars and some sugars recombine to make different starches. At this point it gets very complicated and it's been a long time since I've been in chemistry class so I'll leave the rest up to your imagination.
If I'm thinking correctly, Simple organisms like fugi can only eat simple sugars not complex starches. I'm not sure how much starch your cornsyrup has in it , but it's probably nothing to worry about. Just get a good clear mixture in your jar and see what happens.


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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: NOS4A2]
    #3448933 - 12/05/04 04:20 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks! :thumbup:

Why I dont give up truely cause the support here form certain individuals helps keepin me going. Like your posts trying to help, like someone who says hey where you live I send you a sporeprint.
Those kind souls help a lot for me not giving up! :laugh:

The solution on the pic I filtered now it is clear as said, no fuzz in it longer. But wonder why myc WILL/would grow in there and NOT in the unfilterd/simmerd solution..

hmzz


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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3539526 - 12/24/04 01:50 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Dear Agarilla :wink:

How much CC of sporesyringe would i add to lets say: 200CC of the dextrose/light malt solution?


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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3540127 - 12/24/04 06:08 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

For what it's worth.

I made a 100 ml karo jar and pc'd at 15 psi for half an hour. It turned pretty dark, but no chunks. I figured it was ruined, so I made another and only 15 minutes that time. It darkened very slightly.

Both jars were inoculated at the same time. Both did fine. I found no difference between them, save color.


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Registered: 10/12/04
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Re: Karo to Caramel [Re: ticktock]
    #3540137 - 12/24/04 06:11 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I have no real Karo im trying the dextrose / malt thing.

Should I knock it up with same amount/CC of sporesolution?


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