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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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The Actual
    #3425773 - 11/30/04 12:58 AM (12 years, 11 days ago)

The actual
Is only actual
In one place
And one time:
Here and Now


When one listens to a barking dog, one might imagine emotion, pain, reaction, anxiety, and self-identification, but actually there is nothing there ? just sound from a long and deep corridor, channeled out of nothingness and fading into nothingness again.

Like that dog, we may all strive, but there is truly nothing to be done. If we look deeply into our lives, there is only a thin veneer of self-generated meaning over an immense ocean of nothingness.



My question to you is: Do you find this to be comforting.. or disconcerting?



--------------------
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Offlineoceansize
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Re: The Actual [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3425845 - 11/30/04 01:12 AM (12 years, 11 days ago)

comforting: "there is only a thin veneer of self-generated meaning over an immense ocean of nothingness" That thin veneer we create can be enough to fill that entire emptyness? the fact we can find comfort in this void is enough to make me derive comfort from it. It means: our worldview, our understanding, our grasp on what may/may not exist, is equal in magnitude and quality to that vast nothing ocean... In other words, we have the spiritual capacity to be... oceansized.


--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: The Actual [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3425959 - 11/30/04 01:44 AM (12 years, 11 days ago)

Its both comforting and disconcerting (depending on my mood).

Its comforting in that it helps me forget about silly little meaningless things that bog me down. In other words it helps to let go.

Its disconcerting when participating in ego stroking activities.


--------------------
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Offlineoceansize
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Re: The Actual [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3425977 - 11/30/04 01:47 AM (12 years, 11 days ago)

really ninja? i think of it more like the zen metaphor for clear mind: It is like the moon, always there, but clouds may come and go which block it from sight. Even if I am out of touch with the thought, knowing it is there for me to reconnect to is comforting, or at least not disconcerting.


--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Actual [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3425998 - 11/30/04 01:53 AM (12 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
The actual
Is only actual
In one place
And one time:
Here and Now


When one listens to a barking dog, one might imagine emotion, pain, reaction, anxiety, and self-identification, but actually there is nothing there ? just sound from a long and deep corridor, channeled out of nothingness and fading into nothingness again.

Like that dog, we may all strive, but there is truly nothing to be done. If we look deeply into our lives, there is only a thin veneer of self-generated meaning over an immense ocean of nothingness.

My question to you is: Do you find this to be comforting.. or disconcerting?






Well, one minute you are saying that the dog bark is nothing, and that we are basically attaching meaning to the barking of the dog.

The next minute, you are saying that "Like that dog, we may all strive, but there is truly nothing to be done. If we look deeply into our lives, there is only a thin veneer of self-generated meaning over an immense ocean of nothingness."

You are attaching meaning to the barking of that dog.

Of course we generate meaning out of our lives. If I hear a dog wailing, I may guess that the dog is crying for some reason, based on the life I have had, and the feelings I have because of that life. If my life was bad, I might think the dog is crying about something bad.

All I did was take my feelings and do a Freudian thing and attach them to the dog, and imagine he is feeling the same way, and which would be why, according to me, the dog is wailing. But what if the dog is wailing merely because it is bored?

But this doesn't mean that if we strive, there is simply nothing to be done.

Okay, Skorp. I guess what I should do is ask you to clarify what you mean.

I don't see it that when I strive for something in my life, I am like a dog wailing.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Actual *DELETED* [Re: Frog]
    #3426245 - 11/30/04 02:49 AM (12 years, 11 days ago)

Post deleted by SkorpivoMusterion

Reason for deletion: Woops.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: The Actual [Re: oceansize]
    #3426507 - 11/30/04 03:51 AM (12 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

oceansize said:
really ninja? i think of it more like the zen metaphor for clear mind: It is like the moon, always there, but clouds may come and go which block it from sight. Even if I am out of touch with the thought, knowing it is there for me to reconnect to is comforting, or at least not disconcerting.




Yeah especially when I'm in my ego-centred state, (which is most of the time). The ego coming across an acusation that they really aren't there, isn't very comforting. Especially when things are going great. I said before I can use it to my advantage when in that state to help me let go when things aren't going well.

When my mind is still (or thereabouts), through meditation or just being around nature (I'm so glad I live near the bush), it is comforting. It all depends on my mood and state of mind.


--------------------
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OfflineGomp
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Re: The Actual [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3426990 - 11/30/04 10:12 AM (12 years, 10 days ago)

""Do you find this to be comforting.. or disconcerting?""

yes?

comforting.. and disconcerting
disconcerting.. and comforting??


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Actual [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3427854 - 11/30/04 03:16 PM (12 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Quote:

You are attaching meaning to the barking of that dog.




Quote:

Incorrect. I have done no such thing, my amphibious friend.







I disagree, but I shall move on.  :grin:

Quote:

Of course. Many meanings serve practical purposes in our lives. However, many more do not.
Should we be attach ourselves to meanings, even if they are 'practical'?
Or can we maintain a healthy balance of enjoying/using such meanings and be mindful that they are fleeting and ultimately, non-actual?
Attachment to a self-generated and subjective meaning creates the potential for suffering.




May we please have an example, Master Skorpivo?  Apply it to a real life situation. 

Quote:

The point which is being conveyed in this thread is that, originally there was nothing. It is to nothing that we return. Differentiation came out of the interplay of cosmic opposites; duality. Human life became mired in complexities, and this constant diversity is stressful and disruptive. We ourselves add to the problem with our own lusts and ambitions. We intoxicate ourselves, we indulge in incessant sensual gratification, we strive for success in our careers, we commit decades to the raising of children. All this, only to be caught in the closing jaws of old age, gradually hemmed in until there is no alternative other than sorrows, infirmities, and senility.




See, you make everything sound bad, but not everything is bad.  Doing anything to excess would be bad, but one can enjoy all these things, and still have a good life without sorrow, etc.

What we do only has meaning in the here and now. It will not remain in the next instant. Just do what you can for the present, and leave everything else to happen naturally. Work. Wash. Meditate. Eat. Study. Urinate. Sleep. Exercise. Talk. Touch. Die each night. Be born again each morning.

Nothingness is where true peace and joy comes from; the sacred void.






--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineGomp
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Re: The Actual [Re: Frog]
    #3427898 - 11/30/04 03:29 PM (12 years, 10 days ago)

""Nothingness is where true peace and joy comes from; the sacred void.""

(fisle said on irc:
Nothing; a material suited for changes and possible possibilities?)

the body is a thing, but I am not? :P hihi
yeah, i base that on that base!
All your base are belong to us?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Actual [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3428273 - 11/30/04 05:02 PM (12 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
My question to you is: Do you find this to be comforting.. or disconcerting?




*is walking through the woods and comes to the realization that another hunter placed a trap, well-hidden amongst the autumn leaves, either intentionally or unintentionally knowing that I would come walking through, but at least under the understanding that some other hunter would come strolling through... or, perhaps he was simply hungry for some rabbit meat and had a thirst to quench* :nut: :shocked: :laugh:

I don't find it to be either comforting or disconcerting, as it simply is what it is. :grin:

Now, of course, if my lower order mind was engaging the majority of my awareness at the moment, and was stuck in the least previous thought processes that were playing unneccesary identification and definition games, I would find it comforting because it is the nature of reality. While the mind might like to continue playing its games of identifying and protecting a self, it creates some needless suffering and a seperation from pure awareness and pure experience, which is worse off in the long run.

My mind eventually learned to stop interfering with my perception and experience of reality, and by doing so, fundamental "truths" became apparent, and your post mentioned one. To struggle agansit these "truths" for personal motivations is pointless as reality is painting a different picture. To reflect reality as we perceive it stands, without controllable obstruction, is like the reason we are here, and stuff. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Actual [Re: Frog]
    #3428936 - 11/30/04 07:04 PM (12 years, 10 days ago)

May we please have an example, Master Skorpivo? Apply it to a real life situation.

Three basic examples.


Miss Cliff becomes attached to a superficial meaning of beauty and deeply identifies herself with her good looks.
Miss Cliff suffers an accident that damages her facial structure.
Miss Cliff grows deeply depressed and spirals down an intrinsic path of emotional negativity, leading to suicide.
Had she identified with her true spirit beyond such fleeting, changing forms, she would?ve been more secure and content with her situation and able to carry on with Life.


Mr. Sun is attached to certain types of food, i.e. ice cream. Everyone including Mr. Sun, intellectually knows that happiness doesn?t objectively exist in food, yet when Chocolate truffle ice-cream enters his presence, his reaction shows he feels quite differently.
One day, he was unable to fulfill his attached-addiction to such ice-cream, and suffered into a bad mood, causing his spouse to feel upset in addition which led to the suspension of conjugal actions between the two, leading to increased [sexual] frustration by Mr. Sun which led to the final result of Mr. Sun cheating on his wife.
If Mr. Sun had been able to recognize his egoic-attachment?s desires for what they were, perhaps he would?ve been able to gracefully accept the situation of ice-cream shortage, and continue to be content from within.


Fernando Pablo Julio-Sanchez became attached to a woman?s personality, and such. His ego exaggerated the characteristics of this woman, and found illusory happiness existing in and of herself. Whenever he was with her, he was happy; whenever he wasn?t with her, he was sad. He became an emotional pendulum swinging to and fro between the dualities of pain and pleasure? He became a neurotic, dysfunctional partner, at the price of the lady?s happiness. This led to the lady leaving him for good, which caused Fernando to go insane. He killed her out of pain, envy, and confusion. He served life in Spanish prison. If he were able to love her from a place of intrinsic wholeness, and not depend on her for his own happiness and peace of mind, a beautiful relationship could?ve flowered and flourished.


See, you make everything sound bad, but not everything is bad. Doing anything to excess would be bad, but one can enjoy all these things, and still have a good life without sorrow, etc.

It was all referring to the basic functions that people follow in society that are all too often based on egoic-dysfunctions, which in turn transforms the aforementioned functions into basic-dysfunctions.
I don?t mean to say that those actions, those things, are bad in and of themselves? It is about the actions stemming from deficiency-cognition that create those actions and things.

Doing those things from the state of wholeness, Being-cognition? is what creates actions that truly harvest an abundance of true happiness and so forth.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: The Actual [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3429746 - 11/30/04 10:17 PM (12 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
The actual
Is only actual
In one place
And one time:
Here and Now


When one listens to a barking dog, one might imagine emotion, pain, reaction, anxiety, and self-identification, but actually there is nothing there ? just sound from a long and deep corridor, channeled out of nothingness and fading into nothingness again.

Like that dog, we may all strive, but there is truly nothing to be done. If we look deeply into our lives, there is only a thin veneer of self-generated meaning over an immense ocean of nothingness.



My question to you is: Do you find this to be comforting.. or disconcerting?





My own mind is not purified enough to take comfort in this. At present it makes me feel very depressed and hopeless at times. There is nothing to gain, nothing to do, nothing that can satisfy and nothing that can last. Until I can completely destroy my self-grasping mind the void will probobly continue to be VERY disconcerting as it reveals all happiness, purpose, beliefs, ego games, and meaning to be completely non-existant. Right now it seems dreadfully boring, empty, unsatisfying and depressing.

But of course, I'm still on the other side of the rift, in the world of illusions.



--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Actual [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3430968 - 12/01/04 02:56 AM (12 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:


Miss Cliff becomes attached to a superficial meaning of beauty and deeply identifies herself with her good looks.
Miss Cliff suffers an accident that damages her facial structure.
Miss Cliff grows deeply depressed and spirals down an intrinsic path of emotional negativity, leading to suicide.
Had she identified with her true spirit beyond such fleeting, changing forms, she would?ve been more secure and content with her situation and able to carry on with Life.


Mr. Sun is attached to certain types of food, i.e. ice cream. Everyone including Mr. Sun, intellectually knows that happiness doesn?t objectively exist in food, yet when Chocolate truffle ice-cream enters his presence, his reaction shows he feels quite differently.
One day, he was unable to fulfill his attached-addiction to such ice-cream, and suffered into a bad mood, causing his spouse to feel upset in addition which led to the suspension of conjugal actions between the two, leading to increased [sexual] frustration by Mr. Sun which led to the final result of Mr. Sun cheating on his wife.
If Mr. Sun had been able to recognize his egoic-attachment?s desires for what they were, perhaps he would?ve been able to gracefully accept the situation of ice-cream shortage, and continue to be content from within.


Fernando Pablo Julio-Sanchez became attached to a woman?s personality, and such. His ego exaggerated the characteristics of this woman, and found illusory happiness existing in and of herself. Whenever he was with her, he was happy; whenever he wasn?t with her, he was sad. He became an emotional pendulum swinging to and fro between the dualities of pain and pleasure? He became a neurotic, dysfunctional partner, at the price of the lady?s happiness. This led to the lady leaving him for good, which caused Fernando to go insane. He killed her out of pain, envy, and confusion. He served life in Spanish prison. If he were able to love her from a place of intrinsic wholeness, and not depend on her for his own happiness and peace of mind, a beautiful relationship could?ve flowered and flourished.




WTF is Fernando Pablo Julio-Sanchez??? 

:grin:

Just kidding.  Those are good examples, and now I see that to which you are referring. 

Quote:

Quote:

See, you make everything sound bad, but not everything is bad. Doing anything to excess would be bad, but one can enjoy all these things, and still have a good life without sorrow, etc.





 

Quote:

It was all referring to the basic functions that people follow in society that are all too often based on egoic-dysfunctions, which in turn transforms the aforementioned functions into basic-dysfunctions.
I don?t mean to say that those actions, those things, are bad in and of themselves? It is about the actions stemming from deficiency-cognition that create those actions and things.




But wouldn't you say that it's a type of excess of things that can be good that can turn into dysfunctions? 

Quote:

Doing those things from the state of wholeness, Being-cognition? is what creates actions that truly harvest an abundance of true happiness and so forth.




I think everyone should get counseling after surviving childhood.  Childhood certainly wreks havoc on one's soul.  A child's parents could have been the best parents in the whole world, but that child will still not survive childhood unscathed.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: The Actual [Re: Gomp]
    #3430992 - 12/01/04 03:01 AM (12 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:
All your base are belong to us?




you played starcraft


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Offlinerogue_pixie
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Re: The Actual [Re: oceansize]
    #3431340 - 12/01/04 04:45 AM (12 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

oceansize said:
comforting: "there is only a thin veneer of self-generated meaning over an immense ocean of nothingness"  That thin veneer we create can be enough to fill that entire emptyness?  the fact we can find comfort in this void is enough to make me derive comfort from it.  It means:  our worldview, our understanding, our grasp on what may/may not exist, is equal in magnitude and quality to that vast nothing ocean... In other words, we have the spiritual capacity to be... oceansized.




wow :heart:


--------------------
'It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.' ~ J. Krishnamurti


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OfflineGomp
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Re: The Actual [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3431467 - 12/01/04 05:44 AM (12 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Zekebomb said:
Quote:

Gomp said:
All your base are belong to us?




you played starcraft




when?  :confused: :heart:


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