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Invisibleninjapixie
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You think therefore I am
    #3424552 - 11/29/04 08:48 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

This is an antithesis to Decartes 'I think Therefore I am.'

It is our parents (who gave us our name), our family, our friends, and strangers who define us by their reactions to us and give us our identity.

We amuse ourselves by holding a baby up to a mirror and say who is who.

Wild children raised among animals without human contact have no conception of themselves. When it rains, they say 'I am raining'.

Would we know who we were if there were no one reacting to us in any way? Would we know we exist?

'You think therefore I am,' makes more sense then 'I think therefore I am.'


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Put that monkey back in the oven.


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Offlineentiformatie
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Re: You think therefore I am [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3425025 - 11/29/04 10:01 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

hmmm, how can a child say anything if they were not raised with human contact? i don't think the child would even be capable of thought, no, only instinct. a reaction to the rain.

i do agree that we identify ourselves through others in some way. there is an algorithm i'd think, to explain the pattern. we use others to define ourselves in a way, but it is not only that. we also use our instincts and reactions to define ourselves. probably a bunch of other stuff too.


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/opinion
.sean


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: You think therefore I am [Re: entiformatie]
    #3425047 - 11/29/04 10:07 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

It's not that the child thinks it with words, more like feels it.

Yeah I said that as an antithesis to Decaretes saying, so the truth is probably somewhere inbetween, though I think it's closer to 'you think therefore I am'.


--------------------
Put that monkey back in the oven.


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: You think therefore I am [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3425367 - 11/29/04 11:10 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

I am, therefore, I think.

I am there for I think.


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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: You think therefore I am [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3425385 - 11/29/04 11:15 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

ninja pixie, is that osho?

i remeber reading that somewhere... interesting stuff.

when it rains, i do feel as if i am raining.

i am in a state of rain.

i am my environment, i am not some sort of mystical creature that exists outside of nature.

i am nature.

we are nature.


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Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: You think therefore I am [Re: Todcasil]
    #3425826 - 11/30/04 01:09 AM (12 years, 7 days ago)

The 'you think therefore...' was actually what we learnt in a tutorial on Wittgenstein.

The 'I am raining' was from the David Malouf novel An Imaginary Life.


--------------------
Put that monkey back in the oven.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: You think therefore I am [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3425960 - 11/30/04 01:44 AM (12 years, 7 days ago)

coughs *bullshit*

Look, if it's raining, the weather man will come on our TVs and announce it's raining. At the same time that it's being announced that it's raining, we can walk outside, as long as we're in within the area within which it's raining, and feel the rain.

Why is it that we must question whether we exist or not? I think, therefore I exist. I think about the rain, of which it is agreed upon by numerous others that it is indeed precipating.

I don't really need to know that I think in order to know that I exist, or that otherwise, the whole world doesn't exist.

If I have to believe that the whole world doesn't exist, that we are all illusions in our own minds, then how come we can all agree upon the fact that it is raining, when it is, in fact, raining?


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: You think therefore I am [Re: Frog]
    #3426021 - 11/30/04 01:58 AM (12 years, 7 days ago)

When you look at it from the perspective of someone who has no conception of self, the raining is not seen as an external event happening outside oneself as there isn't a self to begin with. The exerience and the experiencer are the same.

If you went about your day with everyone ignoring you, your actions leaving no impression on anyone or anything, one can't help but question their existance. That's why we need people to remind us we exist. They were the ones who gave us, and continually call our name.

If there was only an 'I', how would you know you exist when there's no criterion for correctness. You say we know its raining because everyone agrees its raining. Who's going to agree if you exist if there was only you? You only know by relation to an external world that reacts to this 'I'.

And I wasn't saying the world doesn't exist or is an illusion. All I'm saying is that the 'I' exists only in a social context.


--------------------
Put that monkey back in the oven.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: You think therefore I am [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3426044 - 11/30/04 02:01 AM (12 years, 7 days ago)

So are you saying that of the small percentage of autistic people in the world, I need to know how they feel in order to know what I feel?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: You think therefore I am [Re: Frog]
    #3426459 - 11/30/04 03:36 AM (12 years, 7 days ago)

No, it means there has to be atleast one other person to confirm your perceived existence. Otherwise how would you know you're right? You don't have to know what they're thinking, just know that they acknowledge you.


--------------------
Put that monkey back in the oven.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: You think therefore I am [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3426986 - 11/30/04 10:09 AM (12 years, 7 days ago)

You think, therefore you think :wink:


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--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: You think therefore I am [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3427827 - 11/30/04 03:09 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Then the question is rhetorical.  There are many people who perceive my existence.  I bull-doze my way through life, and everyone's a target.  No one escapes my impact.  :grin:

So, if a guy is a hermit and lives under a bridge, he does not exist because no one perceives him?

(And :lol: at Gomp.)


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineRiffSki
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Re: You think therefore I am [Re: entiformatie]
    #3428033 - 11/30/04 04:01 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Well, how do we know the baby is real?
how do we know the mirror, the name the identity or anything is real?
Find the answer
and conquer the earth!


--------------------
Arguing on the net is like competing in the special olympics. Even if you win you are still a retard.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: You think therefore I am [Re: RiffSki]
    #3428145 - 11/30/04 04:36 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
I need to know how they feel in order to know what I feel?




Nei, that's not the point. How they feel about you, which therefore creates the actions they carry out around you, the way they interact with you, ultimately ends up creating you. :wink:

Every experience you have within the same area of awareness with someone else ends up shaping you differently. When you are very young, this creates you to an even larger degree, as you A.) Become who you are by identifying with your surroundings, and B.) You are not yet capable of sustaining a sense of self or a mind that is capable of taking on your own meaning, which, of course, would be limited by your previous experience anyways.

This isn't about questioning our existance, or having a need of knowing what others think about you to therefore know who you are. This concerns the nature of how we take on identity and form, and how we become who we, in that moment, are. The self is not a concrete, distinct, seperate, impervious thing. The self exists in a constant state of change which carries out in every moment, which depends on every single variable that is perceived and experienced by your self, and which will be there whether or not you consciously try to either protect it, support it, define it, or limit it.

When all illusory, yet in its own context real, form is stripped away, the true nature of us is shown. The known sense of self does not exist, and, to bring the old saying to a fantastic, ultimate, cosmic conclusion, Think., as the action and the perception of the action is the only objectively real thing that can truly be experienced as it is. We cannot assume that there is an "I", for reasons that were just noted, and we cannot make any further assumptions as to the nature of reality beyond the action itself, "think", as simple, pure action does not reaffirm any state of existance of the mind's illusory self. :smirk:

The only necessity is THINK.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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