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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Questioning my beliefs
    #3419974 - 11/28/04 07:31 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

I've been giving some thought to the libertarian ideas about individual rights and self-government, and I've realized that while it's a beautiful ideology which I support for the most part, it seems to ignore the interconnectedness of society. For example, if the sewer system were privatized and relied on voluntary payments for maintenance, the people most affected by this would most likely be the ones least capable of paying for it. Also, people driving in L.A. are creating pollution that blows inland to where I'm living, so I then have to breathe most of the smog they create. This makes me wonder if perhaps there are situations other than self-defence in which initiation of force might be justified. Now, both situations can be construed as initiation of force, but so can any act of government(see mushmaster's thread about libertarianism and anarchy). I still consider myself a libertarian, and will continue to vote for the Libertarian Party because I believe we need to reduce the size of government, but I think I'm done with ideological purism.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
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Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 953
Re: Questioning my beliefs [Re: silversoul7]
    #3420073 - 11/28/04 07:56 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Without an adequate sewer system a lot of people would get cholera and die a horrible death. Pot smoking hippies wouldn't fix it even if they had a clue how it worked.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
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Re: Questioning my beliefs [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3420090 - 11/28/04 08:00 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Silversoul, those are pretty much the reasons I am not a libertarian.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
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Registered: 01/26/01
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Re: Questioning my beliefs [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3420108 - 11/28/04 08:04 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Great_Satan said:
Without an adequate sewer system a lot of people would get cholera and die a horrible death.  Pot smoking hippies wouldn't fix it even if they had a clue how it worked.




How hard can it be?...last time I checked, water always ran downhill. :smirk:


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Anonymous

Re: Questioning my beliefs [Re: silversoul7]
    #3420117 - 11/28/04 08:05 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

yep.


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
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Re: Questioning my beliefs [Re: silversoul7]
    #3420155 - 11/28/04 08:15 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I think I'm done with ideological purism.




:dancing:


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Posts: 23,284
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Re: Questioning my beliefs [Re: Tao]
    #3420180 - 11/28/04 08:22 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

(shit i gotta get him while he's questioning his beliefs!)

hey, check this out, SS7: http://www.zmag.org/parecon/indexnew.htm - it's a very good collection of articles, interviews, FAQs, speeches, etc about Participatory Economics. Seriously, though, give it a look through. here is a specific article that addresses some of the concerns you were raising: http://www.zmag.org/lm.htm


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: Questioning my beliefs [Re: Krishna]
    #3420579 - 11/28/04 09:42 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

No not ZMAG! arggh!


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: Questioning my beliefs [Re: silversoul7]
    #3420591 - 11/28/04 09:43 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

I can, without a doubt, not only understand but believe in Libertarian leadership at the Federal level. I would prefer a Green leadership at the state level. However with a massive country that allowed 50 truly independent state governments I believe the world would have a better chance at finding a workable solution to government.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: Questioning my beliefs [Re: silversoul7]
    #3420655 - 11/28/04 09:56 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

Some words of wisdom on another, but applicable, topic from Harry Browne:

Limited government vs. anarchy:
It seems to me that a lot of time is wasted by libertarians who argue whether it's possible to have a society without any government at all.

What's the point?

Right now, we're $2.3 trillion away from no government, and about $2.2 trillion away from limited government.

That means that until we trim $2.2 trillion from the federal budget, the issue of limited government vs. anarchy is moot. I can only presume that both sides would be pleased as punch (and then some) to reduce the federal government by $2.2 trillion. So that's what we all should be working toward as the first goal.

If we can get the federal government down to $100 billion, I'll lead a drive to raise the money necessary to rent the New Orleans SuperDome for three months ? so we can all get together and argue over how much further the federal government should be reduced.

Those who want no government at all can continue working to reduce the size of government. Those who want limited government can fight to keep the federal government at $100 billion ? or work to reduce it slightly more ? or even work to increase it slightly.

But none of it is relevant until we reduce the government dramatically from where it is now.

As to the question of whether a society without government is possible, today we try to answer it with limited knowledge. If we can ever make government very small, we will undoubtedly find that plenty of people ? people with more creativity and imagination than we have ? will find it profitable to devise ways to do things privately and voluntarily that today seem possible only through government. Until those creative people have an incentive to put their minds to the question, we're contemplating the issue without knowing all the possibilities.

But so what? The question is moot.

In the meantime, there are two things we know for sure:

    ? Government is force, and we want to reduce the use of force to the absolute minimum.

    ? Government doesn't work, and so we want to remove as many activities as possible from government.

And no matter which side of the limited government vs. anarchy you're on, when someone asks you what size libertarians think the government should be, you can answer:

    "Libertarians want to reduce government to the absolute minimum possible, and we can't really know what size that is until we get there.

    "In the meantime, don't you agree that government is way too big, way too powerful, way too intrusive, and way too expensive?

    "If so, please help us reduce it to the absolute minimum possible."


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Questioning my beliefs [Re: silversoul7]
    #3421151 - 11/28/04 11:28 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

Welcome back to the mess that is reality.

:cheers:


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Registered: 10/21/04
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Re: Questioning my beliefs [Re: silversoul7]
    #3421258 - 11/28/04 11:46 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

You took some mushrooms Saturday night, didn't you.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
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Re: Questioning my beliefs [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3421279 - 11/28/04 11:49 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

zahudulallah said:
You took some mushrooms Saturday night, didn't you.



Actually, two weeks ago.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Registered: 10/21/04
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Re: Questioning my beliefs [Re: silversoul7]
    #3421286 - 11/28/04 11:51 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

I'm probably due for a trip pretty soon. I haven't tripped since Ronald Reagan passed away.


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Invisiblevivid
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Registered: 12/15/99
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Re: Questioning my beliefs [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3421303 - 11/28/04 11:53 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

Hmm.. all I can say is "duh".


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Posts: 10,579
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Re: Questioning my beliefs [Re: vivid]
    #3421334 - 11/29/04 12:01 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

I had many visions during the trip. I had one from the future, where I was paralyzed from the neck down. Someday, I will be in a wheelchair. My faith will be tested.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Questioning my beliefs [Re: silversoul7]
    #3421620 - 11/29/04 01:18 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)


I'm done with ideological purism.


I have been in a similar mindset that you seem to have just entered.

The Libertarians are the closest political group to my personal philosophy. However, I disagree with some of the Libertartian platform. I am proud to call myself a Libertarian in the sense that I do not like government interference and I prize personal liberty. I will continue to vote Libertarian without reservation.

However, I learned a long time ago that all ideologies are flawed, subject to perversion, and most are dogmatic. When someone allows themself to be completely guided by an ideology they become a blind follower who views the world in a biased way. They seek to impose their will upon the world; which usually brings about horrific consequences. I do everything I can to avoid the stinking shitpile of "having a philosophy". Anybody who subjugates themself completely to any system of thought is either stupid, deluded, or scared.

The Left and the Right can both kiss my ass. They'll never have my mind or my soul.


Edited by RandalFlagg (11/29/04 01:20 AM)


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: Questioning my beliefs [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3421918 - 11/29/04 03:03 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

It's all just people looking to improve the endless and deceptive suffering of Samsara.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Questioning my beliefs [Re: silversoul7]
    #3422338 - 11/29/04 09:41 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

The two specific situations you mention are not a damnation of the "live and let live" fundamental principle, merely examples of situations where the correct way to proceed is not immediately apparent.

The sewage system example is one near and dear to my heart, since the village in which I live is faced with exactly that situation. The government has yet to build a sewage line connecting to the nearest treatment plant, so everyone here uses septic tanks. They work just fine for individual dwellings, but are less than ideal solutions for busy bars, since the capacity of the tanks is overwhelmed during busy times and the businesses must pay for pump trucks to empty them. This rapidly adds up to big bucks in the rainy season and/or the high season.

The local association of businesses here has been raising money for a local treatment plant and sewage mains and we will soon have enough to go ahead with it -- maybe another year, maybe two. Once built, anyone who wishes to connect to the mains will be allowed to do so with no connection charge and an extremely low annual fee. The businesses will pay all of the initial costs and almost all of the annual maintenance costs because it is in their best interest to do so and they would have had to do it even if no one else EVER connects to their system.

There are already three "gated communities" I know of nearby with their own sewage treatment plants (and their own electrical generating plants) which have been working fine for years. This is neither advanced nor even particularly costly technology we're talking about here, after all.

As for the air pollution problem, there are already laws in place (as there would be in a Libertarian society) against dumping poison into the water and air. The problem arises once people start attempting to categorically define "poison". Is the smoke from a campfire "poison"? Most reasonable people would say it isn't. Is smoke from burning autumn leaves "poison"? Again, most would say no. But no one would disagree that the smoke from burning electrical transformers is in fact poison, so it is against the law to dispose of them by incinerating them.

Compounding the problem is the fact that certain geographical locations (Mexico City, the LA Basin) are "traps" for smog. Even if the amount of stuff burnt in LA were to be reduced to a tenth the level of that produced in Minnesota, LA by its geographical and meteorological nature would be smoggier than Minneapolis. Hence it makes perfect sense in Los Angeles to prohibit the burning of autumn leaves, while doing so in Minneapolis would be ridiculous.

This doesn't invalidate the "do no harm" principle on which Libertarianism is based, it merely makes the process of determining when harm is being done more complex than just looking out your window.


pinky


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