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Offlinemm.
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Registered: 06/16/99
Posts: 570
Loc: England
Last seen: 5 days, 11 hours
Police shoot demonstrators
    #341666 - 06/15/01 06:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Police have shot 3 people in Sweden during anti-capitalist protests prompted by the recent visit of George Bush and the EU summit.
http://www.indymedia.org

The leaders of our nations can no longer meet in saftey without erecting barricades of steel and employing armed thugs to protect them. Soon they will either have to start listening to the message that people no longer want to be enslaved by their capitalist sysem or become more authoritarian. In europe at least, I hope it will be the first..



Edited by mm. on 06/17/01 02:08 PM.



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Offlinedelian
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Registered: 02/08/99
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Re: Police shoot demonstrators [Re: mm.]
    #344504 - 06/19/01 06:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

video footage of shooting

There is a anti-corporate globalization movement underway. Anyone who disagrees is living under a rock.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
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Re: Police shoot demonstrators [Re: mm.]
    #344574 - 06/19/01 08:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

maybe people need to be a bit more mature at these rally's? I don't want to see people shot but i'm sure the people were nice and peaceful up to the shooting..yeah right

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


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Anonymous

Re: Police shoot demonstrators [Re: Innvertigo]
    #344738 - 06/19/01 11:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Doesn't matter. Rocks and sticks don't have a thing on guns. There is no point to open fire on a crowd that is basically harmless (and a few broken bones is harmless compared to the loss of a life)

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Police shoot demonstrators [Re: ]
    #344987 - 06/20/01 08:14 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

OHHH they were throwing rocks eh? I bet i could kill or seriously injure a person with a rock. I was a little unsure about this because that video didn't really show what exactly happened but now i think they deserved it (only those who threw rocks mind you) But when your in a crowd unfortunatly you're guilty by association......and from what i gathered no one was killed...but i could be wrong.

Personally i can careless what happens in Sweden...but if it was in the U.S. i would have the same stance. Only if there were people throwing weapons.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinedelian
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Re: Police shoot demonstrators [Re: Innvertigo]
    #346138 - 06/21/01 07:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

here's a report from Inge - a member of the most excellent band the International Noise Conspiracy....

I was participating in the demonstrations/riots in Gothenburg this
weekend between the 15th and 17th of June 2001. This thing has been
all over the news in Sweden/Scandinavia, but I don't know how much it
has been hitting the news around the world. And if it has, it's probably a
very, very "produced" version of it. We all know who owns the media
and what their purposes are.

This is my story and my version of what happened and other people
might have different opinions of what and why things happened like they
did, but I will try to give as much of a "live and direct" uncut version of
what I experienced. I'm writing this only one day after coming back to
Stockholm from all this and it's still very emotional to me and I'm still very
tired so this e-mail might be full of misspellings and messed up grammars.
My English always betrays me when I'm not in shape. But I will try my
best...

I will start by giving you a background to what was going on in
Gothenburg...

Sweden has had the chairmanship of the European Union this year and
this weekend they called in all the big shots, the Eurocrats, to have a big
meeting in Gothenburg to discuss the future of European politics and the
future of the European Union. I have been active against the European
Union for 10 years now. For 10 years ago the debate if Sweden was
going to join it or not was the topic on everybody's lips and I quickly
understood that it would not be benefiting for me or any minorities of
Sweden at all. I saw, and still see the European Union as a undemocratic,
neo-liberal hell machine, like a bulldozer of law-enforced capitalism running
over all the rights that labor movements and civil rights movements has
won by fighting for 100 years now. A fortress around "rich Europe"
against the rest of the world and a new super state to compete with USA
and Asia when it comes to production, consumption and exploitation of
the 3rd world. And it's all in the name of free trade.

I was active in the "no to EU" line during the election of if Sweden was
going to join the European Union or not, even though I was too young
to vote by then. The "YES" line won the election by buying all media a
couple of weeks before the election and putting a lot of pressure on the
Swedish labor movements. The "YES" side won with 2 percent... Anyway,
back to this weekend.

Unlike government meetings, this meeting was behind closed doors and
the public was not invited at all. There is still a big critical movement
against the European Union and it's neo-liberal agenda in Sweden and
around Europe and none of those organizations were invited to debate
with the politicians who represents the European Union. And all past
meetings of the European Union, the G8, WTO etc has been followed by
mass protests and criticism. So I don't think that it was a coincident that
the politicians choose to have the meeting the same weekend as
Sweden's biggest summer festival, The Hultsfred festival, to keep kids out
of town. This was a closed meeting for the men with power about our
future. And no radical or critical perspectives were allowed to be
represented there. This was the first mistake made by the politicians that
weekend, and there is more to come.

One funny thing about this meeting was that George Bush II was invited
to participate on Wednesday. He was there for 20 hours and the city of
Gothenburg brought in flowers and planted them all around town so it
would look like the town was in full bloom. According to rumors, George
Bushes visit to Sweden did cost something like 2 million dollars for the
Swedish taxpayers. For 20 hours... I really hope he said a lot of things
that might be good for Swedish taxpayers and the Swedish working class
in the long run, but something tells me he didn't...

A lot of EU-critical organizations, grassroots organizations, labor
organizations, environmentalists, socialists, anarchist, gay rights people,
anti racist organizations, immigrant organizations had asked the
authorities to participate in the meetings, but the meeting was to be
closed from the public eye no matter what. That made a lot of people
mad and the organization and the politicians of the city of Gothenburg
organized meetings and tried to find a solution that would be fitting for
everybody, even tough the critical organizations already had
compromised with the authorities.

There was a lot of meetings and preparing to make the demonstrations
and the activities around the meeting to run as smooth as possible and
the people representing the police had PROMISED the people
representing the critical organizations that they would go very easy on
the activists and use no violence, no horses and no dogs. The police said
that they wanted to cooperate if the activists were ready to cooperate,
and the activists were. They expected around 25.000 activists from
around the world and they didn't want the situation to go completely out
of hand.

Anyway, the city authorities rented a couple of schools to the critical
organizations for people to sleep in during the night and for workshops
and discussion groups during the days. The theme for all those meetings
was "For a different Europe" and we had the authorities blessings to have
our own "EU critical conference" with our topics, our guests to talk about
our future. The authorities also promised us to have 3 legal
demonstrations against the meeting of the European union a couple of
blocks from the buildings of the meeting. Not outside, of course. We are
allowed to say what we think about the people ruling our lives and future
on placards and banners, but not where they can see us...

I live in Stockholm at the moment and I was going to Gothenburg with
my friends so that I could be there on Thursday night. We were driving
to Gothenburg listening to the radio and on the news they said that the
police had been surrounding one of the schools where the forums and
the sleep ins took place. They had formed a line of cops and quickly
thereafter built a wall of containers around the schools so no one could
get in and no one could get out.

The first reason for all this that they gave people was that someone had
used a slingshot (you know one of those kids toys) to attack the police
with. But they changed the reason quickly to suspections about
preparing violent activities against police officers. That night about 200
activists were arrested in the school building and outside when people
were gathering to protest against the lock-up. Friends of mine were held
in a police car for 12 hours without getting any real reasons why they
were taken. And the police used the "bad cop" style to scare them, make
them beg to go to have a pee outside and stuff like that.

The activists that protested outside the school decided to go back to
avoid police violence, but then the police struck with full power and there
were clashes between the police forces and activists inside and outside
the school. By this time, the police came in with horses, which they had
promised a couple of days ago that they wouldn't use. So much for
trying to talk things over with authorities. Everybody involved in the
protest saw this as something very provocative and it was clear that the
police had set the tone for how they wanted the rest of the weekend to
be.

On Friday morning, there was a big legal meeting in the center of
Gothenburg where the critical groups met up to rally and to listen to
speeches about what was going on. A lot of people were still kept by the
police and people were angry because of the police brutality and behavior
the night before and because of having their friends held by the police,
for what seemed to be, no reason at all. And people were angry because
the police had blocked the school where people, who had traveled to
Gothenburg, were supposed to sleep and the workshops were supposed
to take place. People gathered and there were thousands of us. I don't
know exactly how many, but thousands.

After having the big, outdoor meeting the people started to march down
towards the building where the politicians were having their meeting. A
couple of blocks away from the building, the police were lined up, in full
riot gear with dogs and horses and the activists had to stop a couple of
meters from the police. It was a very narrow street and thousands of
people were coming from the back and the tension was high. The police
screamed to the protestors to back off, but the activists refused and all of
a sudden, the police advanced against the activists, letting the dogs on
the people in the front and then hell broke loose. People were running for
their lives, people picked up stones and bottles and started to throw
them at the police and the police hunted the crowd, who fled in panic
back to the spot were the outdoor meeting was. There the clash between
police and activists continued and it was very, very violent. People were
attacked by the police who had horses and dogs and swinging their clubs
at kids in my own age and people picked up stones from the street and
threw them back at the police. Many kids were brutally beaten up by the
police, even people who just lied down and said "I give up, don't hit me".
An innocent man that just passed by was beaten up by the police even
though he wasn't participating in the riot at all. Maybe his crime was that
he was not white.

Anyway, the police hunted the crowd down to the Gothenburg strip
called "Avenyn". A strip with a lot of chain stores like McDonalds and H&M.
This was maybe the stupidest thing by for the police to do at the
moment. We were thousands of angry people and they drove us back
and denied us to go down to outside of the meeting to protest. And they
used horses and dogs, even though they had promised not to. The
situation got out of hand.

I felt so powerless, so degraded by the people ruling my life and angry for
being denied to protest outside the meeting and angry for knowing that
the police broke all their promises and that I still had friends held by the
police. And a lot of people was angry and started to smash the windows
of McDonalds, H&M, Bang & Olufsen and a Swedish Bank. This was widely
reported in the Swedish media and all the activists were portrayed as
"hooligans and terrorists destroying the inner city". There were even
writings about "raping" the city and the people there, and that was
completely ridiculous. What media didn't report was that a lot of small
businesses and cafes did not get smashed at all. Only the big chain stores
like McDonalds, who have made a fortune by exploiting poor people and
using child labor around the world.

The fights continued for about two hours. The police were attacking the
people and the people were throwing stones at the police. The police
picked up stones and threw them back at the activists.

After a couple of hours things calmed down. Some people were trapped
by the police on a bridge and about 100 people were arrested. I went
home to a friend to lie down and just think and rest for a while. Because I
knew that this was only the beginning...

Later that night, me and my friends went out again to participate in the
announced "Reclaim the City" party that was supposed to be held in a
park in the city. We came there and there were a lot of kids gathered and
two big trucks were rented and some DJs were playing music and kids
were dancing and I thought it was pretty neat. But there was a weird
tension in the air and you could tell that this would not last very long. All
of a sudden, I heard screams like "You scum! You fucking commies" and
right beside me a fistfight broke out between activists and some fascist
kids that had shown up. It was started by the fascists. They quickly fled
when the activists started to hunt them away from the spot and it sort of
made me laugh, even though I hate fights. Because I know that right
wing people are seriously brain damaged, but I didn't know they were so
stupid so that they would go to a outdoor party, arranged by left wing
people that are angry because they have been hunted by the police all
day, and call them "commie scum" and look for a fight.

The fascist kids ran away, but not shortly thereafter the real fascists
entered the scene, the Swedish police. They surrounded the park, in full
riot gear and with horses. It was about to blow... Somewhere the fight
between activists and police broke out and people started to run from
the cops who were riding and swinging their clubs. The more militant
activists responded by throwing stones at the police. The police were
driven back and then they attacked again and people fled down the
streets, but the police had surrounded the whole area and you were
lucky if you got out of there. The police were hunting the people down
the street and some activists started to smash windows of businesses. I
think that was very unnecessary. To smash the window of McDonalds or
H&H in a situation like this, I can clearly see the logic of that, but to smash
the local bookstore? What's the point? I don't know...

The clash continued and many people that were not participating in the
demonstration were gathering around to see what was going on. And
some of them started to throw rocks at the police too! That was
interesting. People who looked quite ordinary, without black masks
throwing stones at the violent police force. Interesting.

The activists advanced and started to run up against the cops again. The
clash continued. All of a sudden I heard a sharp bang, and another one...
I don't know how many bangs I heard. But I looked at the police and I
saw one of the police officers holding his gun aiming it at the activists. And
I was hearing screams about somebody being shot. As far as I know, the
Swedish police haven't fired at demonstrators since the black days in
5dalen 1931 when five (or six, don't really know for sure) labor activists
were shot dead. But anyway, seeing a Swedish police aiming his gun
against kids in my own age will stay in my memory forever.

When the shots were fired, panic broke out and I was able to escape a
couple of blocks away from the scene. On my way, trying to avoid being
hit (or even worse, shot) by the police I saw random clashes with the
police everywhere. I saw the police ride over a naked guy with their
horses. A friend of mine was run over by a horse and she had to go to
the hospital. Another friend came up to me with blood on her hands. She
had been taking care of one guy that the police had shot in the leg. It felt
so unreal... Like being on TV or in the news (which we probably were all
the time, because the sky was full of police helicopters). The activists
gathered in a park and squeezed together and started to chant "no more
violence, no more violence" while the police were surrounding the park
ready to strike at any minute. The people in the park continued to sing
and dance and after a couple of hours, the police left the place to the
sound of cheering activists dancing in the park.

Later that night there was a meeting at one of the schools that wasn't
yet surrounded by the police. A guy who had been representing the
activists in the meetings with the authorities and the police told us that
two or three kids had been shot by the police that night. One had been
shot in the back or in the chest (no one was quite sure at that point) and
he said that there should be "no more collaboration with the police".
People cheered. The meeting was very short, because people from
outside were calling in telling us that the police was closing in to the
school. We left the place really fast and took off to the place we where
sleeping at. During the night the police formed tighter lines around the
schools where the meeting had been held.

Saturday morning. About 25.000 people gathered to do a peaceful
demonstration against the European Union and the police brutality.
25.000 people must be the biggest demonstration in Swedish history
ever. But the demonstration was not allowed to go into the center of the
city, which was blocked with walls built by freight containers, but had to
stay outside the city, even though nothing dangerous or violent were
happening. The demonstration was very inspiring and really what I
needed after a day of violence and shooting. Being together with
comrades from all around the world showing our discontent for the
present capitalist society and our hopes for another world order was so
positive and inspiring. I loved every second of it, even tough it was a bit
rainy. The "funny" thing is that this big, peaceful demonstration was not
at all as widely reported in media as the shootings and the riots. 25.000
people walking down the street to show people what they believe is not
interesting in mainstream, tabloid press.

After the demonstration I went down to the inner city to find something
to eat. I went to a restaurant and ate and after that I went back home to
rest for a while. I got back into the city and I was walking down the street
to get to the place where we were supposed to play that night. I walked
in a city that was a war zone. Containers everywhere, scared people and
a weird tension in the air. I was thinking about the shooting that I had
witnessed the day before. It still felt so unreal.

All of a sudden I started to hear police sirens and cops in riot gear filled the
street in a minute and police truck after police truck after police truck was
passing by. I heard the sound of the cars, I saw the blank looks of the
police officers faces, and I saw truck after truck. The sound of power was
hitting the walls of the houses. The sound of fascism and violence was in
my ears. I was scared so I decided to take another way down to the tent
venue where the gig was rather than go where I planned to go in the first
place. And that was good, because I got there without being harassed by
the cops. The cops had stormed into a square in the city, surrounded
people who hadn't done anything and pushed them into police buses and
drove them away. My friends mother was riding her bike when a police
officer pulled her off the bike, dragged her to the ground and arrested
her. For no reason at all. Another friend was held by the police and got a
gun to his face. About 100 innocent people were harassed and arrested.

That night we did a wonderful gig. It was the right place for us to be. In
the center of the class struggle, where the action was and where power
and people met. People were going nuts while we played and we ended
the show with screaming "International solidarity working class unity"
over and over again. One of our best gigs ever. I was almost crying when
we were done. It felt so god damn right at the moment to be in a political
rock band. For once it made a little bit sense.

That night the tension was high in the city. I was walking down the street
and I met activists in the street. No one knew what was going on really...
They said that the police officially had given up, but no one believed that
at all. I saw police cars passing by me while I was walking in the dark
streets and I looked away all the time, hoping that they wouldn't stop
and pull me into the car because they had been performing that kind of
kidnaps all day long. But I didn't get arrested or anything like a guy that
had been pulled down and handcuffed the same day by the police. He
was innocent and asked what he was handcuffed for. The police
answered that "that's because you are causing trouble" and he replied
"but it's you guys who are shooting people" and they said "yes, and next
time we will shoot even more!"

That night I didn't sleep that very much. It felt like war was in town and I
knew that even if the protests and the meeting was officially over, the
war on the street wasn't. That night the police stormed one of the
schools that activists had rented from the authorities to use for sleeping.
The police came in with drawn guns and arrested almost everyone who
didn't escape.

The next day, all of this was over and we went back to Stockholm again.
The events of the weekend was all over the radio, the newspapers, the
TV... All about the violent activists and the riots. Nothing about the
peaceful demonstrations. Nothing about the fact that the police started
the violence. Nothing about the violence that the police practiced on
innocent people of all ages, nothing about the structural violence that the
European Union is for poor people and poor countries, nothing about our
side of it. The policeman who had shot a guy was portrayed as a hero
and claimed that he did it in self-defense (even though he shot the guy in
the back). The papers were full of the readers comments, everybody
saying that "the police were right... we need more cops, we need harder
cops, we need to control those terrorists".. Tony Blair called the 25.000
activists a "travelling anarchist circus". People that he should listen to...It
was very sad, but I was there I know what happened. I'm an eyewitness
to the whole thing and that's why I'm writing this. To get my side out to
the people I care about and to people that might understand and not
just buy everything that bourgeois media is telling them.

So... What did we learn from all this? Well, right now it's very hard to tell.
Maybe in a historical perspective we'll know everything about the protests
in Gothenburg, Prague, Niece, Seattle etc etc and what the
consequences of those events were. What I see right now is that
Globalized capitalism, neo imperialism is the cause of all this. The structural
violence against poor and working people everywhere is getting so
apparent that people all over the world is gathering against the same
enemy. it's the same ideology and same corporations everywhere in
power. And as times and repression gets harder, the clashes between
people and the power get more violent and harder.



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Offlinedelian
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Registered: 02/08/99
Posts: 30
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Police shoot demonstrators [Re: delian]
    #346140 - 06/21/01 07:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

~part II~

A lot of people are condemning the violence used by activists during the
demonstrations in Gothenburg. The stones thrown at the police and so
on... But, the police knew that they had no control over the situation at
all and they tried to show everybody in town who was boss so they
became very violent against everybody and everything. And no one in
mainstream media seems to be criticizing the police throwing stones and
beating up people who just passed by. And everywhere the policeman
who shot a guy in my own age in the back is portrayed as a hero. It's
scary.

And the reactions of many people in the left make me very confused.
Everyone is cheering the zapatistas and the people arming themselves
against corporation hell in the third world, but when the violent side of the
battle against capitalism comes too close to home, people are to quick to
condemn everything. McDonalds, H&M and Burger King got their
windows smashed during the riots. Corporations that got big by
exploiting natural resources in poor countries and using child labor.
Everybody hates that, but as soon as someone get enough of that that
person is a "terrorist" and the cops are free to shoot him.

The right wing moralism is spreading down to ordinary, decent people
who get exploited by the big corporations every day. And the police
violence is just a sign of everything that people like us has been talking
about for so long, that globalization and neo liberalism will lead to violent
and hard times for everybody, except for the people hiding behind
container walls, laughing at us. The European Union was not for the
working class and the police are not on the people's side. We are up
against the European Violence Machine and if you have any thing that
you want to say to the people who are in charge, off you go... or even
worse, you will get shot for doing it.

I think that this weekend will go to history. Maybe in a negative way,
because the police will get free hands in the future and maybe they will
bring in water cannons and tear gas in Sweden (that stuff is still illegal over
here). And maybe it will be harder to organize protests in the future. And
people will maybe only remember the violence they saw on TV and not
the 25.000 activists gathered together peacefully to demonstrate and to
say what they believed in. But people forget history so quick. Sweden
used to have Europe's most militant labor movement until the 30ies. And
all the rights that we have, such as the right to vote, freedom of speech,
women's right to abortion, holidays and stuff like that was won by the
working class after fights with the police and people in power. But they
don't teach us that in school.

I think this is a challenge. We have to organize globally to confront this
new, violent phase of capitalism. We have to do this together and win by
the strength in numbers. I'm not a pacifist at all, but I think the most
important thing right now is to organize your friends, your neighbors,
and your parents, friends at work and school. Let people know what is
going on! It's our future that they wanna sell to the one who pays us the
least... And now it's up to us to change it and to do what people have
done throughout history, over and over again, to win their rights. To
educate, to organize and to activate! And it might be violent, and it might
not be. But I'm quite sure that the people in power won't give up their
money, power, modes of production, corporations to the masses without
trying to kill us all first.

Anyway, I feel very alive after all this. My life will never be the same.
Everything I ever read and heard about class struggle, human rights
struggle, politics and history became true and alive this weekend. It made
me relate to everything from Karl Marx "Das Kapital" to N.W.A:s song
about the police...

So, I guess my story ends here. Or, it's just begun. I guess as time goes
by, I will get more perspectives on this and we will all see the
consequences and I'm ready to debate this with anyone. But for now,
I'm finishing this by saying

Smash Capitalism! Tear down fortress Europe! Another world is possible!

Inge



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OfflinePhyl
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 597
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 8 years, 12 hours
Re: Police shoot demonstrators [Re: Innvertigo]
    #346498 - 06/22/01 06:15 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think the police are blameless at all in these situations. I have been to a number of demonstartions where the police act in an indescrimiate heavy-handed manner. If you're there, then they assume you are there to cause trouble. What happened to peoples right to demonstrate? Take the may-day anti-capitalist demonstrations in London as an example. Hundreds of people were barracaded by police into crossroads, where they were held for upto 8 hours without enough room to sit, and they were not even allowed to go to the bathroom. A large ammount of the violence that followed was a direct result of this.

I understand that they are trying to stop violence and protect peoples property, but in reality all they do is agrovate the situation and increease the levels of damage. Violence at demonstrations is usually limited to a very small minority, but the police will lash out against all demonstrators, and this only leads to contempt aginst the police and aggrivation of what could otherwise be a mostly peaceful demonstration.



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InvisibleAgent Cooper
veteran

Registered: 08/04/00
Posts: 210
Loc: right behind you
Re: Police shoot demonstrators [Re: Phyl]
    #346622 - 06/22/01 01:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quite true Phyl.

Also interesting to note is something I suspected during the anti-FTAA demonstrations in Quebec City; the police/security forces might have had orders to use excessive force not only to protect the Summit but also to discourage future protests of the anti-corporate globalization movement, to instill fear & intimidate, to send a message.

I saw the security forces firing rubber bullets and CN/CS canisters (about 2000 in 48 hours) indiscrimately into crowds - both into the peaceful and the more militant sections of the protest without regard. I saw people sitting down and holding up peace signs in a very respectful manner, only to be met with a large phalanx of riot police who beat people over the heads with batons, shocked them with electrical probes, unleashed attack dogs, launched concussion grenades, kicked and punched them with their lead-infused gloves, and fired teargas canisters directly at the people as if they were bullets. I saw two tank-sized water canon trucks (with huge tracker-esque wheels) fly through the [peaceful] crowds, nearly running people and adjacent automobles over, and then firing their water hoses at people on the sidewalk who looked like they were not protesters at all, but simply curious residents who were standing aside and watching what their neighborhood had become.

Also important to note is the how well-armored the police forces are. They wear fully-decked out riot gear (helmets with face sheilds, gas masks, bullet-proof vests, knee-elbow-ankle-neck-forearm-crotch guards, full-body padding, heat resistant and lead-infused gloves, thick military boots, and complete with a full-body riot sheild). Sure, rocks can hurt the average body, but these are not your average bodies. Seemed damn near impossible to injure them.

Plus, at least in my experience, when demonstrators throw rocks and broken placard sticks, the goal is not not to injury the police, but to keep the phalanx at bay and away from yourself, your friends, and your fellow demonstrators - to keep them from beating you, gassing you, shocking you, and arresting you. When I threw teargas canisters back at the police - I did it in defense of those who were not prepared for chemical warfare. Who knows what would have happened if we allowed them to surround us. This is called self-defense and defense of the right to assembly and voice your opinion. This is not violence.

Now, we could have been violent. I own a gun, I know how to assemble pipe bombs, I know how to fight with a knife. But I didnt because that is not appriopriate nor warranted. I assume someone who understands and champions the 2nd amendment would empathize with this.

"I've killed more people than the Unabomber because I've paid more taxes than he has." ~ Oprah Winfrey

Edited by Agent Cooper on 06/22/01 01:25 PM.



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Offlinemm.
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Re: Police shoot demonstrators [Re: Agent Cooper]
    #347467 - 06/23/01 05:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

In this instance, the demonstrator was shot in the back as he was running away from the police. His spleen and liver have been destroyed and he is still in a critical condition on a life support machine. The police in the UK use a manual that has never been made public - the Public Order Manual of Tactical Operations. It contains amongst otrher things, guidelines on provoking violence to justify their actions and flush out any ringleaders. There is no way this shooting can be justifeid by self-defence. OK, throwing a rock is not the nicest of actions, but when the police are in full body armour, and the protesters are unarmed, does the use of a firearm count as reasonable force? The head of the Swedish Police has said he was very happy with the way his officers dealt with the situation, and that live rounds would be use again if a similar situation were to occur.



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Re: Police shoot demonstrators [Re: mm.]
    #347925 - 06/24/01 02:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Its too late now. Once the centralization process has begun, theres nothing anyone can do about it since the driving forces have already achieved closed positive feedback.

The Syngenor


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