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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Europe to the barricades
    #3407717 - 11/25/04 12:40 PM (12 years, 10 days ago)

Europe to the barricades
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/tonyblankley/tb20041124.shtml

Tony Blankley

November 24, 2004

This Christmastime could be the moment when Western Europe finally joins our war on terrorism. Anti-Islamist fear and anger from the mouths of the European volk are breaking through the surface calm perpetuated by the elite European appeasers. The assassination and mutilation of Dutch filmmaker van Gogh by an Islamic fanatic -- and the retaliatory fire-bombings of mosques by ethnic Dutchmen -- has forced high European leaders and news outlets to begin to publicly face up to the implications of Sept. 11, 2001 and the migration of Muslims in large and hostile numbers into the heart of Europe.

From Holland's leading newspaper, the Telegraaf, to Germany's liberal Berliner Zeitung and Der Spiegel (roughly, the European equivalents of the The New York Times, The Washington Post and Time magazine) has come the same heated prose that could be found in the United States in the aftermath of September 11. And here in the United States, even the liberal National Public Radio Network's (NPR) "All Things Considered" is beginning to seriously report European volkish fury the way they usually report breathlessly on the latest developments in Brazilian rainforest depletion.

Der Spiegel wrote: "The veil of multiculturalism has been lifted, revealing parallel societies where the law of the state does not apply." /The Berliner Zeitung headlined their story: "Fear is spreading." In Holland, the very dignified Telegraaf wrote: " ... magazines and papers which include incitements should be suppressed, unsuitable mosques should be shut down and imams who encourage illegal acts should be thrown out of the country."

Earlier this week, NPR's "All Things Considered" reported on the findings of German television's ZDF TV after they had secretly placed a camera inside a German Islamic mosque. The Imam is heard saying (in translation): "Those Germans, those atheists, they don't shave their armpits. Their sweat spreads evil smells. They stink. They are atheists. What good do they do to us? And since they are unbelievers, in the afterlife, they can only burn in hell." Obviously, this did not go down well when the German public saw and heard such things.

Later in the NPR report they quote from other communications by German Islamics now being revealed to the German public. A teacher at the Riksdorfer Elementary School -- a German government school that under German court ruling three years ago must teach its mostly Muslim students Muslim curriculum -- read an anonymous letter he received: "Germany is an Islamic country. Islam is in the home, in schools. Germans will be outnumbered. We [Muslims] will say what we want. We'll live how we want. It's outrageous that Germans demand we speak their language. Our children will have our language, our laws, our culture."

It is just such inflammatory events that led Der Spiegel this week to report that "A debate on the integration of Muslims is raging in Germany." The article went on to report that: "Computer keyboards across the country are smoking as editorialists pontificate on the pros and cons of multiculturalism ... It is heated and on the verge of becoming poisoned."

Heating the German national broth is the re-emergence of a call for German "Leitkultur," the term for the dominant and guiding culture. Der Speigel quotes Christian Democratic leader Joerg Schoenbohm: "In the Middle Ages, ghettos were founded to marginalize the Jews. Today, some of the foreigners who live with us in Germany have founded their own ghettos because they scorn us Germans. Those who come here have to adopt the German Leitkultur. Our history has developed over a thousand years. We cannot allow that this basis of our commonality be destroyed by foreigners."

Edmund Stoibel, the Bavarian Christian Social Union's candidate for chancellor two years ago said: "We have to defend the Christian tradition of our country." Even the Social Democrat Chancellor of Germany, Gerhard Shroeder, called for banning headscarves for schoolteachers in German public schools.

Meanwhile, the green/animal rights left of the European spectrum has started demonstrating against the Islamic Eid Al-Adha, or Feast of Sacrifice, because it requires the throat slitting of rams and lambs. Italian police in the town of Luino recently had to break up the left-wing demonstrators as they confronted angry Muslim celebrants who were chanting "Allah u Akhbar" in front of the Luino slaughterhouse.

In a recent article, http://www.townhall.com/columnists/chuckcolson/cc20041117.shtml Chuck Colson quotes Bassam Tibi, a moderate Muslim leader in Germany: "Either Islam gets Europeanized or Europe gets Islamized." The Speaker of the Dutch Parliament, Jozias van Aartsen, proclaimed two weeks ago that "The jihad has come to the Netherlands," while at a memorial to van Gogh a Dutch schoolteacher said that; "This is not just a small event. It's part of the World Trade Center and Madrid. We must see this."

Yes, through the blinding smoke of Iraq and through the endless fuming of M. Chirac, the common people -- the timeless volk -- of Europe are beginning to see their true enemy -- radical Islam. The will to survive and prevail is not yet spent in the hearts of our European cousins. They are late to the battle that is now raging. But they are not too late. The second great anti-fascist Euro-American alliance is now beginning to form on the foundation of our two common democratic peoples. Their spineless governments will follow and will soon be run by fighting leaders uplifted from the ranks.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/tonyblankley/printtb20041124.shtml


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3408239 - 11/25/04 03:52 PM (12 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Great_Satan said:
the common people -- the timeless volk -- of Europe are beginning to see their true enemy -- radical Islam.




while i'd agree that the European people are recognizing that radical Islam is a serious problem that needs to be dealt with, I certainly do not believe that the popular belief in Europe for a solution for this problem involves a massive campaign of war, occupation, and colonialisation (or support for that campaign). The popular opinion that I have encountered seems to believe that the current "war on terror" if anything is causing more impoverished, illiterate, and hope-less Islamic youth to embrace radical Islam - and is thus increasing the problem.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: Krishna]
    #3408352 - 11/25/04 04:24 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

One guy gets killed in Holland and everyone thinks Europe is now under attack.  :rolleyes:

Oh no! Radical Islam! The Wahhabis are coming!

Ph33r the wrath of Mohammed B. :grin:


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3408542 - 11/25/04 05:26 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

zahudulallah said:
One guy gets killed in Holland and everyone thinks Europe is now under attack.  :rolleyes:




well i wouldn't say it exactly like that - the "problem" with Islam in europe is one of integration (or a lack thereof). Many islamic immigrants to Europe are seen as being lower-class, not speaking the language of their new country, and, basically, as "strange" compared to the "normal" population. Thus, the population segregates against them. And the immigrants feel confused, in a new country, etc - and so tend to socialize with people in their similar situation. Thus, you have growing communities of immigrants that aren't integrated into the society - this causes them to be seen as more of an "alien threat" - thus they are less integrated - as you can see, it is a cycle that isn't benefiting anybody. I personally feel that the role of Islam in European society is one that must be examined and discussed - lest it become a very serious case of discrimination and dis-integration leading to a horrible situation (for both the "natives" of europe, and the immigrant populations)...


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: Krishna]
    #3408597 - 11/25/04 05:48 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

I don't see why Europe must force Muslims to assimilate. In Germany and Holland they even want Muslims to stop doing prayers in Arabic. Most people in Europe are not happy with Muslims unless they're clean shaven, going to the pubs and clubs, and dating women. If that's one's idea of assimilation, then it is indeed a war against Islam.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3408615 - 11/25/04 05:54 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

What is the point of entering a country and then segregating yourself completely from it? It is this behavior which will lead to muslims being denied the ability to enter the country in the first place. Segregationists = stupid


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: d33p]
    #3408631 - 11/25/04 05:59 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

Why should someone abandon their values and culture just because they live in another culture that's different?

Learning the local language and history is one thing... asking Muslims to intentionally do things against their religion is another - spoken or unspoken.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3408635 - 11/25/04 06:01 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

zahudulallah said:
Why should someone abandon their values and culture just because they live in another culture that's different?

Learning the local language and history is one thing... asking Muslims to intentionally do things against their religion is another - spoken or unspoken.




I'm not talking about asking them to do stuff against their religion. Im talking about them segregating themselves from society. They need to mix and mingle so people can realize that most muslims are just normal good people.

When all people hear about is muslims murdering an innocent film producer and then all they see is muslims segregated on the other side of town it does not paint a good picture.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: d33p]
    #3408672 - 11/25/04 06:17 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

What's even more disturbing is that Muslims are the only group of people that governments in Europe are generalizing.

Frankly, every individual is just that - an individual. If an individual wishes to segregate themselves from a people with different values, that is their goddamn business.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3408695 - 11/25/04 06:30 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

zahudulallah said:
What's even more disturbing is that Muslims are the only group of people that governments in Europe are generalizing.

Frankly, every individual is just that - an individual. If they wish to segregate themselves from people with different values, that is their goddamn business.




Muslims have recently become the most observable cultural problem so they pick it. When Hispanics(only using this as it is another group of people which tend to bind together) begin to do they same i am sure the same will happen.

Unfortunately that kind of view will only generate even more animosity toward muslims. They are allowed to enter the country and seek residency. Then they choose to completely segregate themselves from society. I don't understand how you wonder why hatred toward muslims is growing.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: d33p]
    #3408707 - 11/25/04 06:35 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

If people want to hate Muslims, then the hand of wrong doing is on their head, not ours. It's disturbingly immature for these European governments to be openly generalizing the Muslim populace.

I imagine the ultra liberal Muslims aren't happy either.

Holland Native: "Hey, your people need to get their act together if they want to stay in this country!"

Holland Moderate Muslim Immigrant: "Can you please fuck off and allow me to enjoy my coke and whiskey?"

:lol:


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Offlined33p
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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3408730 - 11/25/04 06:40 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

zahudulallah said:
If people want to hate Muslims, then the hand of wrong doing is on their head, not ours. It's disturbingly immature for these European governments to be openly generalizing the Muslim populace.

I imagine the ultra liberal Muslims aren't happy either.

Holland Native: "Hey, your people need to get their act together if they want to stay in this country!"

Holland Moderate Muslim Immigrant: "Can you please fuck off and allow me to enjoy my coke and whiskey?"

:lol:




Its funny that muslims can act like "fuck you, we're muslims and this is how we act, if you don't like it screw you" and then when they are hated it is the fault of the hater. But when America or actually bush declares the similar cowboy attitutude it is America at fault when it is hated on.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: d33p]
    #3408742 - 11/25/04 06:43 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

What can I say - as Muslims we're obliged and entwined to moral conservative values. If people disagree with that, well they can respectfully disagree. But we're not going to forsake our own values just to please a bunch of paranoid Europeans.

How one interprets this as "Fuck off, we're Muslims... yada yada ya..." is beyond me.


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InvisibleMovingTarget

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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3408763 - 11/25/04 06:51 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

I interpret it as arrogance from what Ive seen of you


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Offlined33p
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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3408798 - 11/25/04 06:58 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

You are very graciously allowed to enter and retain residence in a country and then you go and separate yourselves from society. Some of the more radical people even have audacity to execute an innocent film director. That to me spells "Fuck You"


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: d33p]
    #3408813 - 11/25/04 07:01 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

Why do you generalize Muslim immigrants?

It's somebody's god given right have conservative values. Muslims will not forsake their religion to make a bunch of paranoid liberals happy. Being conservative is NOT segregation. Maybe Evangelicans are segretionists too!  :rolleyes:


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3408837 - 11/25/04 07:06 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

zahudulallah said:
What can I say - as Muslims we're obliged and entwined to moral conservative values. If people disagree with that, well they can respectfully disagree. But we're not going to forsake our own values just to please a bunch of paranoid Europeans.




I agree with this some-what - however, what has caused these Europeans to become "paranoid" has been certain Muslims expressing their "moral conservative values" by murdering people who disagreed with them. You know, I believe that everybody should have the right to believe whatever they want to. Also, that people should have the right to refuse to socialise/associate with people who they deem to be "against their value-system." I think, however, that any sustainable society needs to create an environment where people are willing, encouraged, and taught to share their beliefs - discuss their beliefs - and learn from each other's beliefs. For this to occur, it requires work from both parties - from "native" europeans to express interest in learning about Muslim culture (after all, if it wasn't for Islam - we would have lost everything from the Greek times - while Europe was in the Dark Ages, Islam had a magnificient period of intellectualism, poetry, etc) - and for Muslim immigrants to Europe to express an interest in learning about the culture of the country they are moving to. I'm not saying anybody should change their beliefs - I'm just saying that if islamic immigrants to europe have an attitude of "this is who i am - i don't care who you are - i don't want my children to learn about who you are - i want to live exactly the same life as i would in a muslim nation, except for European social-programs to help me out", well is it any surprise that it makes run-of-the-mill Europeans a bit wary? And this wary-ness causes Europeans to discriminate against muslims, which causes muslims to "band-together", which causes europeans to view them as "gangs", which causes muslims to feel that if the europeans want to type-cast them, well "fuck 'em", etc etc etc - it's a cycle that isn't good for either side - and a cycle that can only be stopped if both sides sit down and talk about it!


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Offlined33p
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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3408855 - 11/25/04 07:09 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

Im not generalizing every muslim. I think that the overwhelming majority are good even the very conservative. Many do join society as a whole but still a great many choose to segrative themselves. I feel that this is not good and it would be best if they desegregated. Where in the scriptures does it say that muslims have to live on one side of town and everybody else on the other. Where does it say that muslims and infidels cannot work together?


Also why do you think i care for evangelicans.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: d33p]
    #3408865 - 11/25/04 07:11 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

Define segregation, in respect to the situation with Muslim immigrats in Europe.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Europe to the barricades [Re: Krishna]
    #3408882 - 11/25/04 07:16 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

You're assuming things about people who have never met.

Look, if someone goes out and kills a film maker, the film maker's killer will be arrested and scheduled to go through the process. Justice will have been served.

So why, even after Mohammed B was arrested and even shot in the leg, that Holland for example perceives a problem with "Muslim immigrants"? Mr. B is in jail. So what is it? They complain about segregation, but yet they themselves isolate the Muslim community.


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