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Offlinedeathcapcubensis
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shamans and hppd.......
    #3404738 - 11/24/04 06:03 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

Can anyone give me some unbiased information on wether or not shamans experience as many emotional/menatl/visual problems associated with psychedelics. Ive have seen NOTHING on this subject, and I find it intriging(sp?). You hear about them using these substances extremely frequently, so it would be interesting to find out wether they have been "damaged" from them


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Offlinewhitegreyhat
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Re: shamans and hppd....... [Re: deathcapcubensis]
    #3405197 - 11/24/04 07:26 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

hmm that is quite interesting. why dont u just ask some shamans, maybe you could find them on the net and email them.  i doubt there is going to be a report about the statistics or health issues of shamans.  thats just logic talking to me :smile:


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Offlinedeathcapcubensis
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Re: shamans and hppd....... [Re: whitegreyhat]
    #3405382 - 11/24/04 08:23 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

Thats a shame, society doesnt seem to consider them as valid people because they live in a more "primitive" manner


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Re: shamans and hppd....... [Re: deathcapcubensis]
    #3405842 - 11/24/04 10:21 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

lol, according to my highschool sociology book, i am considered a shaman, simply becuase i leave my body and communicate with spirits.(typical out of body experience)

i think american society just blows it out of proportion. but if im valid, being so out there and spiritual, ill tell u that i dont know much about this HPPD stuff, or suffer from it unless i am sleep deprived(slight symptoms i guess, but how do we know non-drug users dont experience the same but not acknowledge it becuase they have nothing to compare it to?).

if i am well rested, i see in total clarity. otherwise i do see shit out of the corner of my eyes every now and again when very tired. sometimes it looks like there is a bug crawling up the wall and i look and theres nothing, but many times i will look and there is one, so my peripheral vision is still good, its not all fucked or anything. and i think the breathing effect comes from slight crossing of the eyes from being so relaxed(i only noticed this with me). but thats my 2 cents on this.

and ya know it is funny, we are all shamans. according to that books definition. what do you think dreams are? out of bodies you are just not aware of. those people you dont recognize, but are cool with in dreams?.....thats your spirit guides. or how about them people you remember being in the dream but you cant remember their faces? thats them. *shrug* off topic 2 cents.

basically....you can answer your own question by lookin at your ownself. their no more a shaman than you are, their just aware of things you arent.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: shamans and hppd....... [Re: deathcapcubensis]
    #3407368 - 11/25/04 08:32 AM (12 years, 18 days ago)

I can't speak for all shamans, but shamans get every bit as excruciating trips as most people, in fact more so because shamans actively seek out "the edge".

We tend to work at and eventually gain the ability to alter conciousness at will from a normal everyday state. I for instance can work myself up into a rapturous state in a few minutes, including loss of bodily control and immersion into another realm whilst able to snap myself out of it. Yesterday I had an "encounter" from the other side when I returned with my groceries from the supermarket in a poorly lit street and Salvia for me is as active in facilitating dialogue with the beyond as the movies like you to believe Ouija is, and this at minimal dosage

Most shamans are what is commonly known as "permafried", meaning their perception is altered 24/7, which can be to confusion or at times to chaos. I do not consider my HPPD-like state as "damage" but rather a longterm alteration by the Mushroom Teacher to aid me in my works, whereas to someone who isn't so inclined the degree of alteration would easily be called damage.

If I lay off the Spiritual path :grin: and the psychedelics my sensorium will likely return to something that can pass as normal but I choose to work with these states.

I am a cardiac patient. There statistically is a small but present chance psychedelics will cause me to have a lethal heart attack. I know this full well and choose to accept that risk and continue my spiritual quest with their aid.
Contrary to a teen who wants to get "fucked up", I am prepared to go all the way even if that means a small but present risk that I may have to lay down my life because of it.

Aside from a "personal path" shamans are devoted to facilitating spiritual and bodily healing and growth in others, they often are a catalyst somewhere in the background rather then a "great shining leader" in the foreground.

Shamans are normal people. I'd say that one in fifty people is a potentially gifted shaman, but the Gift lies dormant in all of us, it's usually nurture that messes it up.

People look up towards shamans and therefore look down on people who claim they are them. Shamanism is just a craft like any other. Back in the days of old Tribes measured 15-150 people and each Tribe had to have one (or more) shamans plus apprentices.
It's not that special: it's as spectacularly wonderful as every single person that ever was :heart:


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: shamans and hppd....... [Re: Asante]
    #3407889 - 11/25/04 01:34 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

We've labelled true vision as a disorder, we've created an illusory metaphysical concept seperate from the reality it refers to. HPPD, what is that???  :whack:


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Offlinedeathcapcubensis
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Re: shamans and hppd....... [Re: Asante]
    #3408284 - 11/25/04 04:04 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

Wiccan seeker, I have palpitations. I think its from long term smoking, should I worry about using psychedelics or is your heart condition worse and that is why a heart attack may result. By the way thats a real bummer my heart has always been able to fuck with my highs, i.e, pot anxiety.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: shamans and hppd....... [Re: deathcapcubensis]
    #3408595 - 11/25/04 05:47 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

use lower dosages of your fave psychedellic if you can get it and and carry fear
lots of heartattacks are intestinal gas that escallated stupidly.
relax through that
relax into the gaz pain
or whatever.
just don't struggle against it.


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InvisibleMelusina
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Re: shamans and hppd....... [Re: Asante]
    #13221576 - 09/20/10 09:17 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:


Most shamans are what is commonly known as "permafried", meaning their perception is altered 24/7, which can be to confusion or at times to chaos. I do not consider my HPPD-like state as "damage" but rather a longterm alteration by the Mushroom Teacher to aid me in my works, whereas to someone who isn't so inclined the degree of alteration would easily be called damage.






Quote:

the_phoenix said:
We've labelled true vision as a disorder, we've created an illusory metaphysical concept seperate from the reality it refers to. HPPD, what is that???  :whack:






Both of these.
The only reason that hppd is a problem in our society is because there is no acceptable, non "deviant" way in our society for one to dedicate their life to a spiritual path, thus SEEKING a state of existence with permanently altered perceptions. Our modern civilization is conspicuously lacking in this department.

Whatever one believes about whether shamanism is real or bunk or whatever, it is apparent that there is a need for the option to take this life path for a segment of the population, as evidenced by the fact that human civilization has ALWAYS included it as a viable, even respectable path, until now. Whether or not is it "real" doesn't change the fact that, obviously, it is necessary to certain members of the human race.

The reason we consider it a problem when a person achieves a permanently altered state is because we do not value the pursuit of altered states as a lifestyle. Even our word for it.."tripping"...suggests going somewhere for a brief time, but always "coming back" at the end. Because of this attitude, many are forced to give up what would otherwise be their life's work in order to participate in out society, because there is no place for them otherwise.


Edited by Melusina (09/20/10 09:19 AM)


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InvisibleReoSpeedwagon153
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Re: shamans and hppd....... [Re: Melusina]
    #13221594 - 09/20/10 09:30 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

I think it's another example of the extent to which cultural conditioning shapes one's view of the world.

We assume that since psychedelics occasionally lead members of our culture into schizophrenia and HPPD that this must be an across-the-board phenomena associated with the use of psychedelics.

@redgreenvines: Spot on with the indigestion/heart attack problem! There have been more than a couple of times when my left arm feels tingly and my chest feels a bit uncomfortable, absolutely wrecking my acid trip into a wall, only to realize in the throes of desperate psychedelic logic that it's probably just indigestion!

Isn't that what's known as 'flight into the physical?'


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Offlinecurenado
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Re: shamans and hppd....... [Re: Melusina]
    #13221618 - 09/20/10 09:39 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

I'm pretty sure diet and lifestyle have a lot to do with this new "HPPD" whatever you want to call it.

Most jungle shamans we read about don't eat a lot of over processed food and do eat a lot of natural foods which are loaded with stuff that is not in the captive white woman's diet.
Abuse is another factor I believe is involved as well as drug mixing - most jungle shamans did not graduate from coricidin to mushrooms, as a example.

For all our greatness, Americans have LOUSY health and live highly un-natural lives. I think this plays a big part.

I have eaten psychedelics for 33 years and not had "HPPD" and am not "permafried". Along with the loads of roots, leaves, barks, seeds, mushrooms, flowers and algae in my diet I am almost as skinny as a jungle shaman, having "0 fat stores" and I have the psychological benefit of being kind of neglected and abused - I mean, no one would believe I have any disability and even when my rheumatism does get on me, people act like it doesn't exist.

So I can't go to anyone even if I thought I had HPPD because they would just look at me and say "Quit doing drugs" - I don't even get the "Oh I know me too!" shared "disability" that is so socially popular in our culture.

I just wonder what sources we have that say "most shamans are permafried" because I don't think that is true. I am sure some are, but I bet that has more to do with the above than anything else.

I would treat anyone here saying they had HPPD with "How about some real food and less commercial chemistry for awhile?" first. Somehow, among a bunch of unsophisticated people, we seem to have ZERO hppd. They are susceptible to self destructive obesity, which does not seem to be the factor.

The only patients I curently have that I would even imagine might "manifest" hppd are non drug users. I say that because they are the type of personality that already gets a lot of attention and a disability check for being morbidly obese and I can see them tripping and then having a new internet disease that involves them being so unique, tragic and important.

But, line 'em up. I'll treat all hppd cases for 2 weeks and count the numbers. Because I am sure that there are variables in this and that there may be some precipitators, where "perma-fry" is kind of true. But I bet I find that more from drug mixing and neurosis than anything.

Nota: I want to add that not everyone who is obese because they are a big lying whiny whine bag staying up pigging out all night on garbage and other self destructive or self serving things. I see people and it is hard for them to fool me and I have been watching this for a long time. So PLEASE do not assume the hefty person you know is yanking your emotional chain or insulting your intelligence - there are things going on with this American obesity problem that are still being investigated. I can usually practice in my sleep, and I have had to think overtime about some of these cases - there is a lot more to this problem than we currently can see and that defy current theories and approaches.
OK! Felt that was important to add.


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Edited by curenado (09/20/10 10:31 AM)


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Offlinecurenado
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Re: shamans and hppd....... [Re: redgreenvines]
    #13221672 - 09/20/10 10:08 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Not just acid. We have seen "cardiac burden" with the mushies too. All I have seen though has been transient, short lived and minor - I have never yet seen a psychedelic "heart attack" (serious disruption or infarction).
I thought Shaman William was going to have a heart attack once, so I just stood there watching him gasp for several breaths and then it passed and he was off to play again.
That degree is about the closest I myself have ever come to seeing it, but in my "time" society was not flooded with psychedelics to increase the numbers I might see, and the drug mixing was with much simpler and less destructive drugs.


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OfflineEvolution
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Re: shamans and hppd....... [Re: Asante]
    #13225888 - 09/21/10 10:04 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Wiccan_Seeker, did you ever had any adverse effects (at the heart) from taking psychedelics or are you just a cardiac patient without negative (heart issues) from psychedelics?

Somewhere I read that Iboga can be hard on the heart, and that actually some people died from ingestion of it. Now the point is: I read that you and your trip-group wanted to trip on Iboga. Are you really willing to take the risk or didn't you ever had any adverse heart issues from psychedelics, resulting in the confidence that the Iboga will work out fine as well?

3 trips ago I felt a pain in my back, at the height of my heart, which resulted in the fear that something was terribly wrong. Since then I'm paying (too) much attention at my heart, resulting in the same thought-loop over and over and over again.

The trip there-after I got into this same thought-loop again, which kinda sucked.

My last trip, 2 months after the last one, was one without all these negative thoughts.

It really sucks, because I tend to think about it too much a couple times a day for a couple of months now. It all started with this one trip, even though I tripped before without any problems.
I even sometimes feel a pain on the chest, but it seems that it's just my ribcage because the pain goes on and off and on when positioning my chest into another way.

It's all really weird, because I seem to be perfectly healthy when I'm on my bicycle, driving up and down hills and trying to reach full speed.

I tend to think I'm making myself crazy..

Any help would be appreciated.


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Edited by Evolution (09/21/10 10:05 AM)


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OfflineLunaro
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Re: shamans and hppd....... [Re: deathcapcubensis]
    #13225996 - 09/21/10 10:45 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

The ranges are probably as variegated as they are with nonshamans; I don't think there are "absolute" rules that apply.

It also probably depends on what type of shamans they are, what kind of entheogens and ceremonies and contexts they're in.

Personally, I think what distinguishes a shaman is the ability to take these concoctions and still maintain a clear head and be able to lead a ceremony and be a valid guide or teacher.

I don't think there is "abuse" the same way as with us ("civilized") people, which is ironic, because they're the "primitive savages," yet we're the ones recreationally imbibing to get "fucked up."

For some in the hobby, and for "shamans," this is a lifestyle.

And for the record, I don't know what "emotional/mental/visual problems" are.  Is seeing an evil spirit in the astral plane a problem?  What would constitute "damage"?


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OfflineGrimReaper86
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Re: shamans and hppd....... [Re: Melusina]
    #13226049 - 09/21/10 11:05 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The reason we consider it a problem when a person achieves a permanently altered state is because we do not value the pursuit of altered states as a lifestyle. Even our word for it.."tripping"...suggests going somewhere for a brief time, but always "coming back" at the end. Because of this attitude, many are forced to give up what would otherwise be their life's work in order to participate in out society, because there is no place for them otherwise.




Exactly^

Also, HPPD...I would say perhaps shamans do "suffer" the symptoms of HPPD and merely don't have a label for it or don't consider it something that needs to be diagnosed. I myself "suffer" from HPPD I think...I haven't had any diagnosis but I consistently get tracers (especially at night and especially when I'm high on weed) and sometimes I feel a bit like I'm tripping when I'm not but it's not that big of a deal honestly. It may be due to some of my own actions and not a permanent function of my brain but I consider it to be irrelevant. These changes in my perception do not hinder me in anyway and in fact I find them rather entertaining. In fact anyone who has symptoms of HPPD will probably tell you the same thing....it's not bad...just different.


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OfflineLunaro
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Re: shamans and hppd....... [Re: GrimReaper86]
    #13226797 - 09/21/10 02:19 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Oh - I did notice more "brain zaps" after my ayahuasca experiences.  Probably coincidental, but it's easy to associate the DMT experience with electric zaps in your head before falling asleep :smile:


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> The Psychedelic Experience

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