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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: MOTH]
    #3386887 - 11/19/04 10:49 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Many states won't even give financial aid for philosophy and theology majors.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3387040 - 11/19/04 11:44 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I'm majoring in philosophy now. After graduating college I plan to go on to law school (apparently you can major in anything to get into law school, and philosophy sounds like an appropriate lawyer major). Philosophy is really the only thing that interests me in college except for psychology and politics (and both of those majors don't really have a very clear career path either).

Don't know what kind of things they teach you in philosophy classes? Philosophy!! Reading and analyzing different philosopher's ideas and stuff.

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OfflineNomad
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3387757 - 11/20/04 03:10 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

One thing you must understand is that you are dealing with people who are about to make the first major independent decision in their life, and that decision has a lot of conditioning effect. Discover Strassman, but can you stand up to do the right thing later, after having started with blank opportunism? If you make materialist decisions today, you will be a materialist tomorrow.

"There is no such thing as the pristine 'I' floating above the mud of the world" - Terence McKenna.

They call it karma; do it today - be it tomorrow. Don't think that you can just walk away and be spiritual as if nothing happened.

So to the original poster I say, go for it, study philosophy. The last thing the world needs is more practical people. Dammit, I will even do it myself and throw away eight semesters of totally practical computer science. (To avoid overdramatization, I made that decision months ago and this thread had zero influence.) I've never been so at peace with myself: As hard as it has been, I finally managed to do the first right decision in my life. Others will follow. People asked me how I can so easily live with the fact that the last four years of my life were wasted. I told them that, in life, either nothing is wasted, or everything is wasted. There ain't no in-between.

I agree that it is important to develop the Root Chakra and the Power Chakra. But neglect the Heart Chakra, and both will be useless. Because where exactly will your power be rooted?

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OfflineNomad
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3387771 - 11/20/04 03:14 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Many states won't even give financial aid for philosophy and theology majors.

Still, it is unlikely that anyone will starve in the western world. You can dedicate your life fully to a spiritual or philosophical ideal, and you will still have a substantially higher life standard than those people (talking about hermits and the like) who did that in the past.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: Nomad]
    #3388419 - 11/20/04 09:26 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Working backwards: The Heart Chakra, like the other chakras, belong to the Astral Sheath in Yogic terms, one of our psychophysical 'layers.' The Heart Cave, Hridayam, Sacred Heart, Jewel in the Lotus of the Heart, etc. is a different order of Being and underlies the Astral and the Physical, so please do not misunderstand me. The Heart chakra is NOT the 'Atman' or 'Self' or 'Christ' - the Sacred Heart is. There would BE no quest for TRUTH if this Heart Cave were not being 'filled by the Grace of God' in the first place.

The Tibetan Buddhist Stupa is a structure (in the abstract) of a large cube, upon which is a large sphere, upon which is a long cone, upon which is a small hemisphere, flat side up, upon which is a drop. Each shape represents a psychic center or chakra and an element. The cube is the Root (Earth) and the sphere is the Navel (Water). In all systems that I know of, the 'heaviest' and most earth-bound must be developed first for stability-sake. I, for one, had an undeveloped Navel Center all the way into adulthood. It required real ANGER to open it up (my divorce) for the first time in my life. The anger lent tremendous power which I took to the gym and built muscle, exuded more testosterone, created attitude, stopped being co-dependent, and took charge of my life in a new way. Compassion was directed at ME for a change, whereas earlier, it had been to my ex-spouse and clients and little to take care of MY equally important needs. For a co-dependent, any self-care seems to be selfish. I am not selfish, but I have equal Compassion for myself now.

Secondly, I was not expressing an opinion so much as retracing the steps of my own life over 33 years. The younger one is, the less inclined one is to consider the 'distant' future. The less inclined to consider the future, the less likely will one be to sacrifice for that future, like setting aside hard-earned money for a tax shelter annuity or something. This is especially true if thinking about money is uninteresting or disturbing, coupled with the fact that one doesn't know that one is supposed to know about these things. I have invested money in a tax shelter for many years now. I also inherited some money which I invested with Smith Barney and then another firm. I have to work 30 full years to receive a pension for the rest of my life (43% of my 3 highest-earning years). If one doesn't exercise practicality, my quality of life will drop off radically after I retire, and at 63, I will be pretty used to a certain standard of living. I am a philosopher, not a hedonist, so my standard might not seem 'high' to a money-addict, but I want to live in my home and begin to 'soar,'again, unfettered by work and responsibility - much like I did in my college years. Without planning a practical strategy, I'll 'fall.' My energy will be sucked down into survival levels and instead of passing upward through the Centers and transcending, I'll fall into the Earth centers. Young Icarus, full of youthful pride, did not take the Middle Way between the moisture of the deep sea and the fire of the sun. He flew too high, too soon, and fell, perishing in the darkness below. Let those who have ears, hear.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3388629 - 11/20/04 10:27 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

"Don't you put your existential despair on me! Seriously"

i was being a bit melodramatic. its just that the you that you described as a teenager, into meditating, yoga and philosophy, and jsut thinking about what to do in university, is a perfect description of me. I too am hardwired for philosophy and psychology, and thats what i would most likely want to take.

Your post just reminds me how hard it will be to maintain my personal freedom of choice and follow my dreams while still feeding myself, i for one cant wait 12 years to be employable. or can I?

well see what happens

it sounds to me that your life did work out quite excellently though, so its all for the best


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Everything I post is fiction.

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OfflineNomad
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3389199 - 11/20/04 12:52 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I thought that thing about the Heart Chakra would be a witty one-liner , but it wasn't, obviously.  :laugh:

I understand that you did not state an opinion. But let me point out again, that, if you had stated an opinion, you would recommend a path you have not walked, in favor of a path which you have walked and which worked for you. Anyway, thanks for the advice (I understand that you gave no advice...).

Young Icarus, full of youthful pride, did not take the Middle Way between the moisture of the deep sea and the fire of the sun. He flew too high, too soon, and fell, perishing in the darkness below.

He flew, at least he flew. Let him fall; he will rise again.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3389328 - 11/20/04 01:33 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I'll add this postscript. Three years after I graduated from college, which included two six month periods of employment that sandwiched a two year Masters program, I visited my college campus on the first day of a fall semester. I had just begun a Ph.D. program in Maryland, yet here I was revisiting Long Island University. Anyway, I got into a conversation with a kid who was just beginning college there and I told him how I had graduated 3 three years earlier, etc., etc. He asked me if there was anything I could advise him on and I responded with "Faith...You have to have faith." The kid sort of reared back (we were sitting on the Great Lawn) and exclaimed "What?!," with a certain amount of hostility in his voice, as if he were plainly offended by my response. With that response from him, I simply got up and left.

Besides my discovery of LSD, of sex, of falling in love, of betrayal, of my first exposure to madness and suicide, of pure self-discovery, I also discovered my first crisis of meaning. When I told my first girlfriend (I was a late bloomer), a dark-eyed, petite, curvey little chick that I was planning to change my major from pre-med to philosophy, she freaked out on me. I realized that she was in school primarily to find a potential physician to marry. I saw in a flash how the world worked, what the girls were about, how I was valued merely as a potential source of lifestyle as programmed into the mind of a Jewish girl from Bethlehem, PA. She became a symbol for women, marriage and the worldly. She was not the girl I was in love with - that would come shortly before I graduated - a fair-haired version who was truly bright, 3 years younger than me, who turned me onto Huxley's 'Island,' but who used jealousy in the misguided attempt to draw me closer. Sleeping with my roommate of three years only caused me to reject her forever, but it reinforced my previous suspicions. Looking back, it is not difficult to see why I entered a seminary and embraced ascetic ideals - loneliness and horniness was a form of pain I could control (I believed); betrayal, heartbreak, jealousy, mistrust resulted from dependence on another. Eight years later I unfortunately married a similar woman. I stayed 10 years (I'm a slow learner in matters of the heart).

What's the point in the above paragraph? ARE YOU GOING TO GO IT ALONE? If not, please bear in mind that the average girl (assuming you're heterosexual) seeking marriage and childrearing is NOT going to wait for a 'seeker' to 'find himself' spiritually and occupationally. Casual sex as a component of lifestyle is incommensurate with the philosophical or the religious life - straight OR gay.

Hey, Saint Paul was a tent-maker, Benedict Spinoza was a lens-grinder, Jacob Boehme was a cobbler, Diogenes was a vagrant who lived in a drain pipe, and Jesus worked as a carpenter. Some people find jobs teaching others about these people, but everyone is a philosopher inasmuch as everyone develops a philosophy of life, articulated or not.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3402260 - 11/24/04 04:33 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for the input guys, nice and thought confusing/provoking :/
Well I'm not bothered about any other subject, they are all so rigid, I'm not academic in the slightest and I don't consider myself intelligent, just thoughtful.


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"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: Nomad]
    #3402453 - 11/24/04 05:26 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Icarus perished. That is the myth. His Father Daedalus did not perish, but was true to the wisdom of the middle way. Icarus is not the Phoenix :wink: and will not rise once fallen.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineNomad
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3402716 - 11/24/04 08:04 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

They all rise again.

Suppose it is true; we live life after life in an endless cycle of suffering, until we finally manage to lead an ascetic life dedicated to a transformation in consciousness. Then, shouldn't we lead this life here, in this world, where we have access to all the scriptures of all religions, countless sacred plants, technological devices for achieving altered states of consciousness, and a society in which the material needs are so easily fulfilled that no one is going to starve? Instead of living it in a world where someone interested in religion might in all actuality starve?

Suppose it is true; depending on our actions in this life, we will experience an eternity somewhere else. Then, the above still applies, only a little more so.

Suppose it is wrong; we die and it's over. Then I still do not see why I should participate in the rat race. I can achieve a draw just by waiting it off. Bill Gates might have the bigger house, but a couple years from now, we will live in the same kind of place. It will be about two meters long, half a meter wide, and made of wood.

The problem with the rat race is that, even if you win, you're still a rat.

Gotta find a philosophical girl.

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Offlineferago2
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #3402923 - 11/24/04 09:30 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I'm studying philosophy in school myself. I'm in my 3rd semester of college, and so far I've taken an intro level class in which we read a whole variety of different philosophical writings, from political philosophy to metaphysics (do we have free will?) and epistimology (what are the limits of human knowledge?). I've also taken what's called "modern philosophy," which is really the progression of philosophical thought from Descartes (whose skeptical method would be useful on this board :p) to Kant, who has a whole lot to say about what we are able to know, and what we can never know. The third class I'm taking currently. It's philosophy of song, and we're focusing on what makes songs appealing, including analyzing the melody, rhythms, structure, lyrics and so on, as well as reading Shopenhauer, Plato, and some contemporary theorists.

Academic philosophy really breaks down into 3 areas: Political philosophy (self explanitory) value theory or aesthetics (what makes things beautiful, important, etc... like my song class) and metaphysics/epistimology (how the world is, and what constitutes knowledge). The later is probably going to be my area of focus, and is the most closely linked with what goes on on this board, although most of the posters here could learn a whole lot from any philosophy class's discussion of logic, and what constitutes valid and sound arguements.

I dunno what jobs you can get with a philosophy degree besides graduate school or law school, so I'm either going to double major in journalism, or triple major in that and another subject.

Hope this helps.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: Nomad]
    #3406466 - 11/24/04 10:42 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Your last sentence is the most important one of all.

What if?, what if? Establish yourself in peace here and now, and you will not fret about 'what if?' so much. Each moment will arise and pass including your final inspiration and expiration. Old fashioned ice cube trays could divide and separate water in frozen forms. Allowing the trays to thaw returned the various frozen forms to their essential formless, clear nature. So it is with our formless minds frozen into thoughts and feelings. Accustom the mind to return to its formless and blissful condition. Practice the pre-post-mortem state even in life. What did your face look like before you were conceived? TRUST. Only form is annihilated, not awareness. We think that we're only a wave, but we are really the entire Ocean. Why focus on the immediate form which arises, and perishes? Become COSMIC!


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinefalcon
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3406534 - 11/24/04 10:52 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

pre-post-mortem state Outstanding!

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3407022 - 11/25/04 01:50 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

...my point is that too much Wisdom, too early in life can make mundane and profane living particularly difficult. Build your life from the rock-bottom basement up, not from the roof down. Establish the Root Center, then the Power Center; THEN with a firm foundation in the world, and providing you don't lose your way in the comforts of materiality, you can then built a tower to higher worlds. Just one person's experience.

Better advice I have never heard given anyone. :thumbup:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineNomad
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3407168 - 11/25/04 03:21 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Old fashioned ice cube trays could divide and separate water in frozen forms. Allowing the trays to thaw returned the various frozen forms to their essential formless, clear nature.

That reminds me of that incident when the student said to the zen master,

"When we die, it is like ice returning to water, right?"

And the master, smiling, replied:

"No, it is like water returning to water."

The point being, why not transcend even that? Why not realize that this search, this struggle, this desire, this non-peace, is the perfect expression of the formless?

I put my faith in the Pali. I am not a Theravadin, because Theravada consists of the Pali plus commentaries, and, frankly, I think Buddhaghosa didn't have a clue. Still, I am close to being a realist; rebirth either exists or it does not. It is a scientific question which can be answered by the scientific method. If it exists, there must be a way out of it; that, again, is a scientific question. I believe that ultimate reality consists of rivers, trees, and rocks. The Mahayana concept of emptyness is an illusion; albeit it may be a necessary one on the path.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: Nomad]
    #3407968 - 11/25/04 11:57 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Of course, you are entitled to your own opinion, but I do not trust opinion - even my own. I have my own experience, which I compare and contrast with those whose experiences have been remembered through the ages. If ever I become wise in my own eyes, I will require a slap upside my head to adjust my attitude.

And you sir, if you believe that you can evaluate entire religious traditions from your armchair, and then misconstrue the physical and the metaphysical, epistemology and gnosis, then Life is going to deal you a startling blow. When it comes, think of it as a Compassionate blow from 'The Cosmic Zen Master' for falling asleep during a seshin of Zazen.

The Mahayanist view IS closer to the "scientific" view of physical reality inasmuch as the "ultimate reality" of time-limited phenomena like "rivers, trees, and rocks," is anything but "ultimate." Why, even as a child I broke down water into Hydrogen and Oxygen, and thrust glowing broom straws into each testtube to see the difference in the ignition of those two basic elements. Beneath the atomic is the subatomic level of the electrical, of strangeness and spin, and quarks. Even these are not "ultimate reality." You need to think in 'time-lapse' mode. An acorn is potentially an oak tree, but an oak tree is actually a time-developed acorn. The physical matter of the entire universe is likewise a time-developed extension of 'earlier' and simpler manifestations of form. "Ultimate reality" necessitates a harkening back to origination of 'all of it' - beyond the Singularity of the Big Bang to Ultimate Mystery.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: Diploid]
    #3407970 - 11/25/04 11:58 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Uh...Thankyouverymuch.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: falcon]
    #3407972 - 11/25/04 11:59 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3408416 - 11/25/04 02:46 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I just have to say, Markos, its been great, reading and feeling your perspective. :wink:

I'm amazed and reassured that someone such as yourself has evolved to this point in life where your mind is extremely encompassing and complexly structured, and not only this, but that it seems to be that the individual facets of that mind are networked properly. At the same time, it appears that your mind, while being an immense, elaborate system, is free of clutter and needless, emotional residue - its structure is kept at a bare minimum to perform its required tasks, and it does not interfere or obstruct your direct perception of reality.

Not only all of this, but perhaps the most important aspect of what I perceive of you is that while your mind is quite advanced and formed, the formless beyond your mind, your pure state of being, is almost infinitely more deep and conscious. I feel that you are experiencing reality and pure awareness beyond the constrains of the mind. :mushroom2:

I am not saying these things to cater to your ego, or mine, for that matter. I find these aspects that I have observed of you very interesting as they mirror myself to similar degrees, and considering your extensive worldly knowledge, your much longer time on this planet, and your apparent deep state of being to be a glimpse of where I may someday (soon :wink:) be, if I continue on this path moment by moment.

I surmise that perhaps there are times when you are almost completely free of the operation of your mind, and other times when your being might get lost in the complex workings of your mind, but the majority of the time, keeping a most important balance between the two, depending on the situation present in your life at the time and what it requires from you. It seems as though you have followed the upward spiral and have indeed reached a higher place. :thumbup:

Some might get lost in the structure and elaborations of your expressions here, but it seems that you hold it as a mere convention, a tool, and a powerful tool at that. The meaning and the being run deep and are formless and most ripe for experience.  :laugh:

Sorry, I just felt the need to express some appreciation for you and your being here, you've definitely helped me evolve and grow, perhaps this is partially why the similarities that I note developed in the first place.  :smirk:

I will end with one question: Have you read The Well of Rememberance by Ralph Metnzer? I've been reading it recently, and just curious if you have as well. Its reading has been indefinitely put on hold, however, as I recently came to find a Norwegian Elkhound puppy (Odin :grin:), and I have now been reading a book, The Art Of Raising A Puppy, by a group of monks from New Skete, who exclusively raise German Shepherds. Interesting perspective on dog ownership. :lol:

Any thoughts on all of this? :nut:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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