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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Loyalty vs. Morality
    #3400169 - 11/23/04 09:25 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

If your best friend broke into someone's house and stole their belongings and only you knew about it, would you turn them in? If the love of your life murdered someone, would you bring them to justice? To what extent would you allow wrongdoing from your loved ones? At what point do you betray your bond with that person in the name of justice? Would you ever look the other way for a friend? What matters more to you: loyalty or morality?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Loyalty vs. Morality [Re: silversoul7]
    #3400199 - 11/23/04 09:30 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I have zero tolerance for the uncompassionate.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Loyalty vs. Morality [Re: silversoul7]
    #3400215 - 11/23/04 09:34 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

no.

Selfish or immoral as it may be, loyalty is above morality to an extent IMO. Same concept, different way of putting it : if you were a judge , your daughter was going for first place and her contender did a little better, what would you do?

For one, I would be unable to see if I really WAS biased. How could I be sure that I wasn't just trying to balance it out? I'd probably choose my own daughter.



I would "betray" them at the point that they complicated matters with other friends/relatives.

Do I value loyalty over morality? Not quite. My morality has nothing to do with law.

Does this mean I don't care about the victim? Not entirely. I'd have a long talk with the friend in question, but sometimes damage-control is more important than ideals and morality.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Loyalty vs. Morality [Re: vampirism]
    #3400313 - 11/23/04 09:53 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

If I was in a burning building and could rescue my cat or a famous brain surgeon I didn't know, I might well take my cat.

I don't think that would be the right thing to do, however.

Loyalty is a good demonstration of human selfishness.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Loyalty vs. Morality [Re: deafpanda]
    #3400322 - 11/23/04 09:54 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

but is selfishness "wrong"? We're essentially making our own genetic material go farther by helping no one but our friends and family.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Loyalty vs. Morality [Re: deafpanda]
    #3400339 - 11/23/04 09:57 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deafpanda said:
If I was in a burning building and could rescue my cat or a famous brain surgeon I didn't know, I might well take my cat.





See, if I was faced with that situation I would save whoever I thought I had a better chance of actually getting out with and therefore saving.

If the cat was on the first floor, and the famous brain surgeon on the fourth, I would grab my cat and skee-daddle.

If the brain surgeon was on the bottom floor, and the cat was on the four floor, I would say, "For a brain surgeon, you sure are an idiot," point him to the door, then go get my cat.

Wait, what was the question again? Ahahaha... sorry, I'm going to bed now...


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Loyalty vs. Morality [Re: vampirism]
    #3400350 - 11/23/04 10:00 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I couldn't say for sure that selfishness is wrong, but I will say that I think that selflessness is right.

This cat in burning building example is an example of my cognitive beliefs (It is better to save a brain surgeon than a cat) contradicting my emotions (I love my pussy :wink: ).  I dunno what would win, but I think it is my cognitive beliefs that decide what is right.


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OfflinePopeHypocriteIII
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Re: Loyalty vs. Morality [Re: deafpanda]
    #3400360 - 11/23/04 10:03 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

If possible, I would remove myself from situations where the two would come into conflict.

Ultimately, however, morality would have to be the strongest urge. Without the self-imposition of a code of conduct, there are no parameters of acceptable behaviour. Morality is not something that can be turned on and off at a whim - rather, it is necessary to consistently live according to one's sense of morality if it is to have any value or meaning. Moreover, in many situations I would consider the deliberate commission of a patently immoral or unjust act to be a form of betrayal, thereby negating (or at least weakening) the sense of loyalty I felt.

Yet even then I would have to pursue a moral means of redress with a sense of compassion. I could not accept a response or penalty which was disproportionate to the situation.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Loyalty vs. Morality [Re: deafpanda]
    #3400384 - 11/23/04 10:07 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

but you are an entity, how can it be so right to deny yourself?


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Loyalty vs. Morality [Re: vampirism]
    #3400415 - 11/23/04 10:13 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think that selflessness or altruism is a denial of your self, it is a type of behaviour that doesn't place your needs above everyone else's.

I'm not saying I don't place my needs above everyone elses btw, I'm sure I do.


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Invisiblejux
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Re: Loyalty vs. Morality [Re: silversoul7]
    #3401473 - 11/24/04 01:52 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Hmmm ... I know only what I have done, not what I shall do. And as for the stealing one, what I did was tell the person how royally fucked up it is to steal from others and that I severely disapproved of their actions. Then, I left the friend to his own morals and to karma.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Loyalty vs. Morality [Re: jux]
    #3401993 - 11/24/04 05:15 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I am loyal to a fault. However, I also am a huge proponent of morality. If someone I knew did something really bad, something that hurt another, I would turn that person in.

See, if I know of a wrong done to another human being, and I sit by and do nothing about it, that makes me as bad as that person.

And also, I wouldn't want a person in my life who did something bad.

See, it's a no-brainer, imo.

You have a friend. The friend kills someone and tells you about it.

Um, do you keep this person as a friend?

Or even something more mild:

You have a friend who steals from work. You don't call the friend's work place and rat because you are loyal.

But do you keep this thief as your friend?

What does it say about you and your values if you keep friends who are either murderers or thieves?

If you know someone who is an immoral person, go ahead and be loyal. But keep in mind that eventually, that person will burn you, too.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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