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Offlineschorts
a lot more and alittle less.

Registered: 09/28/03
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MISTAKE in psilocybe toxicity information
    #3399881 - 11/23/04 08:26 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I found this error just a minute ago... as stated, it implies that marijuana is MORE toxic than mescaline, a chemical I recall being implicated in a couple of deaths or so. Jackherer.com would also tend to agree, although I believe the LD/50 values quoted for THC were MUCH higher than the one here.

"...Psilocybin has an LD 50 of 280mg/kg. In comparison, the LD 50?s of LSD, THC... and mescaline are 30mg/kg, 42mg/kg, and 370 mg/kg. Thus, when death is considered as the toxic endpoint, psilocybin is one of the least toxic of the hallucinogens."

anyhow, that should be a pretty obvious fix- I'm guessing mescaline and THC were swapped.


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Offlineschorts
a lot more and alittle less.

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 54
Loc: (roughly) portland, OR
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: MISTAKE in psilocybe toxicity information [Re: schorts]
    #3400421 - 11/23/04 10:16 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

OH! I forgot to mention that the quote is from the first paragraph under "Short Term Toxicity" and the URL for the page is:

http://www.shroomery.org/index/the/default/par/12208


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: MISTAKE in psilocybe toxicity information [Re: schorts]
    #3401403 - 11/24/04 01:29 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Saaweet!!

I just picked up a Merck Index at Goodwill fro $10. Time to put it to use.

Mescaline LD50 i.p. in rats: 370 mg/kg
THC LD50 i.v. in mice: 27.5mg/kg
Pcilocybin LD50 i.v. in mice/rats: 285/280mg/kg


Joshua


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: MISTAKE in psilocybe toxicity information [Re: schorts]
    #3401488 - 11/24/04 02:00 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

>LD 50?s of LSD, THC... and mescaline are 30mg/kg, 42mg/kg, and 370 mg/kg.

So, it says, LD 50s of :
LSD : 30mg/kg
THC: 42mg/kg
Mescaline: 370 mg/kg

What is swapped or am I missing something?


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Offlineschorts
a lot more and alittle less.

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 54
Loc: (roughly) portland, OR
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: MISTAKE in psilocybe toxicity information [Re: Anno]
    #3402170 - 11/24/04 06:10 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Joshua! glad to see I caught you attention and gave you something entertaining to do. I've allways wanted to PM you as I know you live somewhere around here, and I'm a FOAF of yours. (You take great pictures too. )


okay, so I did some searching and found several different LD50 measurements for THC, all from reliable sources. Then, good old Erowid explained to me why:

TETRAHYDROCANNABINOL TOXICITY DATA:
666 MG/KG ORAL-RAT LD50;
482 MG/KG ORAL-MOUSE LD50;
525 MG/KG ORAL-DOG LD5O;
29 MG/KG INTRAVENOUS-RAT LD50;
42 MG/KG INTRAVENOUS-MOUSE LD50;
128 MG/KG INTRAVENOUS-MONKEY LDLO;
373 MG/KG INTRAPERITONEAL-RAT LD50;
168 MG/KG INTRAPERITONEAL-MOUSE LD50;

REPRODUCTIVE EFFECTS DATA
CARCINOGEN STATUS: NONE.
ACUTE TOXICITY LEVEL: MODERATELY TOXIC BY INGESTION.
TARGET EFFECTS: CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM DEPRESSANT. POISONING MAY ALSO AFFECT THE RESPIRATORY, CARDIOVASCULAR AND IMMUNE SYSTEMS.

ADDITIONAL DATA: THE USE OF ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES MAY ENHANCE THE TOXIC EFFECTS. POISONING MAY IMPAIR THE PERFORMANCE OF TASKS REQUIRING ALERTNESS. INTERACTIONS WITH MEDICATIONS HAVE BEEN REPORTED.




Although I cant provide a link for this bit of anecdote, I have read recently that THC CAN NOT be safely injected. This would coincide, in my opinion, with Marinol being an oral-only drug. Remember that THC is not soluble in water and is basically an oil. I wonder, if you inject oil into a human bloodstream, how is that going to go?? obviously not too well. =)

Anyhow, since they had the most complete information, I will be looking through erowid for the other LD50's, as Merck seems to be the orriginal source and also consistently utilizes the lowest (ie safest) value, regardless of relevancy.

Jackherer.com, the reason why this caught my attention in the first place, has this much to say:

"...A number of researchers have attempted to determine marijuana's LD-50 rating in test animals, without success. Simply stated, researchers have been unable to give animals enough marijuana to induce death.

8. At present it is estimated that marijuana's LD-50 is around 1:20,000 or 1:40,000. In layman terms this means that in order to induce death a marijuana smoker would have to consume 20,000 to 40,000 times as much marijuana as is contained in one marijuana cigarette. "


Now obviously, since erowid actually had values for oral ingestion, something must be a little fishy here. however, for a ~60 lb dog, a lethal dose would be just about 1/3 lb of PURE THC... and although its feasable, considering the trend in LD50 values generally increasing with the complexity of the animal invloved, all this data SERIOUSLY discredits an LD50 dose of so low a value. frankly, the solubility of THC alone would do it- it should be fairly obvious that it's NEVER to be injected.

my suggestion is this: go with the oral value for a dog, or just dont quote it. we ALL know that psilocybin and THC LD50 is supposed to be completely unatainable anyway.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: MISTAKE in psilocybe toxicity information [Re: schorts]
    #3402583 - 11/24/04 08:28 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Repeating my question:
What is swapped or am I missing something?


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: MISTAKE in psilocybe toxicity information [Re: Anno]
    #3402644 - 11/24/04 09:20 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

It's obvious that you missed the short bus when you were a kid, otherwise you would have responded to the e-mail I sent you a couple of days ago.

I think he is saying that the info provided for LD50 is inaccurate due to the fact that the mode of administration does not match well to the mode of likely ingestion.

The i.v. data obtained was via an emulsion delivery method using saline and polysorbate 80 probably to introduce the THC in a non-damaging form.

Joshua


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: MISTAKE in psilocybe toxicity information [Re: Joshua]
    #3402964 - 11/24/04 11:46 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

>I think he is saying that the info provided for LD50 is inaccurate due to the fact that the
>mode of administration does not match well to the mode of likely ingestion.

All 3 LD50 values are for the same route of administration, aren't they?
I just don't see what is being "swapped", must be my tired eyes....


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: MISTAKE in psilocybe toxicity information [Re: schorts]
    #3403702 - 11/24/04 02:46 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

mescaline, a chemical I recall being implicated in a couple of deaths or so.

Mescaline implicated in a couple of deaths? I think you're confusing a story about a chronic alcoholic in terrible health who died while vomiting after taking peyote. Mescaline isn't going to kill anybody.


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: MISTAKE in psilocybe toxicity information [Re: Anno]
    #3403815 - 11/24/04 03:07 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

The order of toxicity would remain the same when considering the LD50 i.v. dose for monkeys.

The data for mescaline is intraperitoneally.

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: MISTAKE in psilocybe toxicity information [Re: Joshua]
    #3404000 - 11/24/04 03:48 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Mescaline LD50 i.v. for Rats is 157 mg/Kg

Joshua


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Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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InvisibleHermes_br
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Re: MISTAKE in psilocybe toxicity information [Re: schorts]
    #3407453 - 11/25/04 10:17 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

from: http://www.heffter.org/review/Review2/chap2.pdf

Visions of the Night:Western Medicine Meets Peyote 1887 ?1899


"..Heffter concludes that the alkaloids cause the peyote syndrome, and probably that the unique effect
on the visual system is most probably caused by a single alkaloid. Earlier in the same article, Heffter described the results of administering mescaline hydrochloride
to mammals, with no clear results. Doses of 100 to 250 mg/kg caused no evident effects on rabbits. A large
cat, when given 100 mg, vomited and appeared somnolent. But when 200 mg was administered subcutaneously to a dog weighing 6.1 kg (thus 33 mg/ kg or the equivalent of a dose of 2.3 g [!] of mescaline
given an adult human), it showed no signs of somnolence or nausea.
?The only remarkable thing was that after about 1 hour it began to whine and bark?not while looking at
the observer, but at the opposite side of its cage. When called, it turned around and wagged its tail. It continued
to display the same unusual behavior for quite some time? (p. 411). "

"It is unlikely that pellotine acts, as do most current soporifics, at GABA receptors. It showed some curious
species variations not characteristic of GABAergic drugs: Heffter (1898) reported that dogs seemed
immune to it, and showed no effects whatever even when given massive doses of 50 mg/kg (corresponding
to a dose of 3.5 grams in an adult human).
On the other hand, cats given as little as 15 mg/kg vomited and shrieked piteously; larger doses, far from sedating them, caused continual wailing and nervous spasms. In this respect pellotine seemed to resemble morphine, which also produces excitement in cats at higher doses (Merck, 1991).


Edited by Hermes_br (12/13/04 10:20 PM)


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