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 Intox
journeyman
Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 59
Last seen: 22 years, 4 months
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 Re: Death Penalty/Abortion  [Re: Pynchon]
#343495 - 06/18/01 09:53 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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There aren't enough babies up for adoption...people who want to adopt have to wait 5 or 10 years to get a baby because there aren't enough babies availible.
Why not put it up for adoption instead of killing it and dumping it's dead body in a trash can?
BTW,I'm not completly against abortion.If a 9 year old girl gets raped,and she would die while giving birth because she is too small,then she should have an abortion.
There are many sick fuckers that use abortion as an alternative to condoms.Keep fucking untill she gets pregnant,then kill the babie before its born.There are girls that have had 3 or 4 free abortions.
What if the father doesn't want his babie murdered? Where the fuck is his choice?
Edited by Intox on 06/18/01 11:56 AM.
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 Pynchon
Slow Learner
Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
#343534 - 06/18/01 10:58 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Would you say the same thing for murder and rape?...I don't think so"
Of course not. I would however say the same thing about euthanaseia, a much more appropriate analogy.
It is not my opinion that a fetus has a vestigial tail in its early development...it is an easily verifiable fact. It also has vestigial gills. A fetus is in effect undergoing a much compressed version of evolution, though its obviously impossible to say at which point it becomes truly human.
Everything else you say is absolutely correct, very few people today even know the meaning of personal responsibility. Which is a good reason for giving them the option of not becoming parents.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Pynchon]
#343582 - 06/18/01 12:19 PM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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***Of course not. I would however say the same thing about euthanaseia****
I believe that euthanaseia is the same as abotion however at the end of a persons life. So at least we're making it clear that you are for the extermination of seniors against their will. At least you can admit what you are for.
****It is not my opinion that a fetus has a vestigial tail in its early development...it is an easily verifiable fact****
I don't believe i discounted your "facts" I do discount the idea that its not a human because it didn't reach that development point (where you have admitted you have no idea when it is human) I, however believe that conception is the point where it is to be considered a human...but hey i guess that's my opinion
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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zetek
enthusiast
Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 210
Loc: United States
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
#343876 - 06/18/01 08:16 PM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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In reply to:
If you killed me at any stage of development,even if it was before the 'official human' stage,I would be dead because you killed me,and it was perfectly legal because of your lame ass excuse.
So you are against killing any life, regardless of whether it is human or not?
In reply to:
And about 50% think you are wrong...where does that leave us now? Is it your 50% that should heard over the other 50%?
Against abortion? Then don't have one.
In reply to:
Everything else you say is absolutely correct, very few people today even know the meaning of personal responsibility. Which is a good reason for giving them the option of not becoming parents.
Well said.
In reply to:
I believe that euthanaseia is the same as abotion however at the end of a persons life. So at least we're making it clear that you are for the extermination of seniors against their will. At least you can admit what you are for.
.
Now you're getting a little silly Innvertigo. Extermination of seniors against their will? At least you can admit what you are for? Your argument is degrading very quickly...
In reply to:
I, however believe that conception is the point where it is to be considered a human...but hey i guess that's my opinion
I respect your opinion but I'd like to know why you consider it human at conception. Any particular reason?
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zetek
enthusiast
Registered: 04/28/01
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
#343879 - 06/18/01 08:19 PM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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Clarification.
I replied to Innvertigo's post, but in doing so, I also included a quote by Intox. I didn't intend to make it appear as if Intox's statement was Innvertigo's.
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Anonymous
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
#343959 - 06/18/01 09:45 PM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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***will or desire to read someone elses opinion on God. In fact it's quite naive to just believe someone who writes a book. I will choose my faith and common sense......you can follow others if you like. ***
That is not at all what I was implying, and I think you know enough about me to know that. All I was suggesting is that you get some sort of different perspective on things than the one fed to you by mommy and daddy and the southern baptist ministry at large. I'm too damn tired to be objective, so I'll stop now. But I will say this: It is absolutely fucking pathetic when people are so sure they are right that they will not even consider another view point. I'm glad you are 100% sure you are right. Maybe you can teach the rest of us, oh wise leader.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun
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Intox
journeyman
Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 59
Last seen: 22 years, 4 months
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
#344022 - 06/18/01 10:34 PM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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"So you are against killing any life, regardless of whether it is human or not?"
I'm against killing a life that is developing into a "human" such as a human fetus,not just any life such as a bullfrog or a rat.
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Kriz
old hand
Registered: 10/11/99
Posts: 231
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
#344155 - 06/19/01 03:19 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Against abortion? Then don't have one.
What a strange little world you must live in.. "Against murder? Then don't kill anyone." "Against the jailing of innocent marijuana smokers? Don't become a cop." How I wish my life were so simple.
~Kriz
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...
(yes my real phone number)
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for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...
(yes my real phone number)
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Kriz
old hand
Registered: 10/11/99
Posts: 231
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
#344161 - 06/19/01 03:42 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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In reply to:
The question is what makes it human? Pull a cell out of my liver, or my eyelid, or my left femur. I guarantee that they are alive and all possess 100% of my genetic makeup. Those cells are of a human but are not a human
Does your liver have a heart? Does your liver have a brain? Does your liver have eyes, or legs or arms? I guess I'm not the only one missing the point.
In reply to:
can't think; it isn't conscience, it isn't self-aware. So what human qualities does it have?
Firstly, any animal with a brain can 'think', so that quality can hardly be one to set as a point where one becomes 'human'. A newborn baby is not fully conscience, and most likely its not self aware. Is it therefore not a human? If that's the case when do you become a human? When you stop developing perhaps? So only 20+ year olds are 'human'? Picking any arbitrary spot where this embryo becomes 'human' is ridiculous.
In reply to:
A chimpanzee has all of those qualities, so why isn't a chimpanzee human?
Exactly. Opening the door for such foolish qualities nessisary to be considered 'human' opens the door to stupidity all together. If you are going to claim that a fetus is not a human, then you MUST back up that argument by picking a definate point in development where it stops being whatever you think it is, and becomes a human. Thus far only one point has been suggested. A developed cerbral cortex I believe it is. However, that's hardly a definate place for it. Your brain does not fully develope until around the age of 15, so you could, by that very logic, claim that you are not 'human' until you are 15 years old.. OR you could claim that any species with a cerbral cortex is a human being and should be treated as such. Until you have decided what your beliefs are exactly, what makes you so bold as to think your beliefs should be validated by others?
~Kriz
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...
(yes my real phone number)
--------------------
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...
(yes my real phone number)
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zetek
enthusiast
Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 210
Loc: United States
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kriz]
#344208 - 06/19/01 05:26 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Picking any arbitrary spot where this embryo becomes 'human' is ridiculous.... Opening the door for such foolish qualities nessisary to be considered 'human' opens the door to stupidity all together. If you are going to claim that a fetus is not a human, then you MUST back up that argument by picking a definate point in development where it stops being whatever you think it is, and becomes a human. Thus far only one point has been suggested. A developed cerbral cortex I believe it is. However, that's hardly a definate place for it.
I didn't say a fully developed cerebral cortex. I implied a "functioning" cerbral cortex because a fetus' cortex wires up in the 3rd trimester.
Is this your definite place for considering it human?
In reply to:
By week 4 it has not only has a backbone and muscles forming, and have eyes, arms, legs, and ears, but it has a heart, which pumps blood through its body. A pregnancy is not even detectable until week 2. No realistic abortion takes place before atleast this. By week 8 all organs have finished forming. The stomach produce digestive juices and the kidney's function. 40 muscle sets are working in conjunction with the nervous system. If this isn't alive I don't know what is.
These organs may be functioning but they are not unique to Homo sapiens. If I use your broad definition of human I have to include a lot of other species.
I suspect though, that you consider it human when it is a zygote with human DNA in its nucleus. I don't. Most fertilizations never result in a full-term baby. They are spontaneously aborted by the body due to developmental errors. When the fetus actually has a realistic chance of living outside of its mothers body and has characteristics unique to humans, then I'll consider it human.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
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Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
#344231 - 06/19/01 06:18 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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****Against abortion? Then don't have one****
In addition i don't want the government (you and I) to have to pay for it. being poor is no excuse.....food for thought....i have no choice if "MY" woman aborts my child. That my friend is sad.
****Now you're getting a little silly Innvertigo. Extermination of seniors against their will? At least you can admit what you are for? Your argument is degrading very quickly... ****
Am I? What do you call Euthanasia then? Notice you didn't deny it..hmmmm....My argument is far from degrading. I'm demonstrating absurdery with the absurd.
****I respect your opinion but I'd like to know why you consider it human at conception. Any particular reason? ****
Because if left alone the single cell / Embreo will form into a baby...on the same note if a Teenager is left alone he/she will form into a Senior.................. but will probably be Euthenized :)
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
#344236 - 06/19/01 06:32 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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****I think you know enough about me to know that****
I don't know you that well..and i'm sure there are others that don't either..try not to flatter yourself ;)
****All I was suggesting is that you get some sort of different perspective on things than the one fed to you by mommy and daddy and the southern baptist ministry at large****
I haven't lived with "Mommy and Daddy" in about 13 years. I am Catholic not Baptist and don't agree with the baptist except for the "big picture" .....and i'm from the North..there is nothing Southern about me.
****But I will say this: It is absolutely fucking pathetic when people are so sure they are right that they will not even consider another view point****
How does it feel? That's been my problem ever since this debate has entered into our society. If you open your eyes you will see another point of view.
****I'm glad you are 100% sure you are right. Maybe you can teach the rest of us, oh wise leader.****
Do i sense a little desperation? I believe i'm right because i think life is sacred and what God intended. That is all i need to make my decisions.....oh am i not supposed to believe in my opinion a 100%...or should i be wishy washy?
You are showing close mindedness maybe it is you who should open up
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
#344261 - 06/19/01 07:41 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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> In addition i feel that they have no concept of personal responsibility.
I accept personal responsibility for all of my action. Social responsibility is another thing entirely. Perhaps you are confusing the two.
> I have no will or desire to read someone elses opinion on God. In fact it's quite naive to just believe someone who writes a book. I will choose my faith and common sense......you can follow others if you like.
"Common sense" is following others.
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kriz]
#344262 - 06/19/01 07:42 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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> Firstly, any animal with a brain can 'think', so that quality can hardly be one to set as a point where one becomes 'human'. A newborn baby is not fully conscience, and most likely its not self aware. Is it therefore not a human? If that's the case when do you become a human? When you stop developing perhaps? So only 20+ year olds are 'human'? Picking any arbitrary spot where this embryo becomes 'human' is ridiculous.
So then what you're saying is that an embryo is human right at conception?
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
#344264 - 06/19/01 07:45 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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> Because if left alone the single cell / Embreo will form into a baby...
Unless of course it's a stillborn, or one of those organisms born without a brain. Still, ruling out any birth defects, you're claiming that something that should become a fully developed adult should be considered a human being. I consider it a lump of cells.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kid]
#344283 - 06/19/01 08:27 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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****I accept personal responsibility for all of my action. Social responsibility is another thing entirely. Perhaps you are confusing the two. ****
No i'm not.....there are many who don't take responsibility for their actions.....
****"Common sense" is following others.****
If your a socialist of liberal perhaps...
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kid]
#344284 - 06/19/01 08:31 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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****Unless of course it's a stillborn, or one of those organisms born without a brain. Still, ruling out any birth defects, you're claiming that something that should become a fully developed adult should be considered a human being. I consider it a lump of cells.****
And that's your opinion which is fine. As for your example of a still born, they die natuarally but i still consider it a human until it dies. Fully development has nothing to do with it. I think people who were born with birth defects are human as well even though there are parts of their body that are missing
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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zetek
enthusiast
Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 210
Loc: United States
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
#344302 - 06/19/01 09:15 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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In reply to:
****Now you're getting a little silly Innvertigo. Extermination of seniors against their will? At least you can admit what you are for? Your argument is degrading very quickly... ****
Am I? What do you call Euthanasia then? Notice you didn't deny it..hmmmm....My argument is far from degrading. I'm demonstrating absurdery with the absurd.
When I think of euthanasia, I think of physician-assisted suicide. These people are not dying against their will. They are a person, and as such, have the right to decide what to do with their own body. In a situation such as "mercy killing" if it is against the will of the person, then yes that is murder and is wrong.
In reply to:
****I respect your opinion but I'd like to know why you consider it human at conception. Any particular reason? ****
Because if left alone the single cell / Embreo will form into a baby...on the same note if a Teenager is left alone he/she will form into a Senior.................. but will probably be Euthenized :)
I should probably stop here and define my terms:
Person: Being an individual or existing as an indivisible whole; existing as a distinct entity.
Human: Possession of the qualities and characteristics which separate Homo sapiens from all other animals.
As a zygote or embryo, it does not have human characteristics, which I have previously attributed to an advanced cerebral cortex. Now it has the potential to develop/wire up an advanced cerebral cortex, so I would say it is a potential human, but not human yet.
And it clearly is not a person. It is a potential person. Sorry, but I believe the rights of an existing, independent person outweigh those (if any) of a potential person.
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Innvertigo
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
#344328 - 06/19/01 10:18 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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****When I think of euthanasia, I think of physician-assisted suicide. These people are not dying against their will. They are a person, and as such, have the right to decide what to do with their own body. In a situation such as "mercy killing" if it is against the will of the person, then yes that is murder and is wrong.****
physician-assisted suicide is a form of euthanasia but you'd have to be naive to think that is the only kind that goes on. Further more I am against i say it is what it is.
****As a zygote or embryo, it does not have human characteristics****
It doesn't have human dna as an embreo? Is that not a human characteristic? hmmmmm
****which I have previously attributed to an advanced cerebral cortex****
Which means nothing because you discount the evolution of the "Human" Embryo as non human...what is it then? an ape?...so let me get you strait....if a person is born with a non-advanced cerebral cortex (like those with cerebral pulsy) aren't human or a person???? ......i would rellay like to hear the answer to that!!
****I would say it is a potential human, but not human yet. ****
sigh.......yet again just an opinion which you have the right to say. However for every example of non-human i can site an example of Human...so where do we stand....or am "I" being closed minded.
Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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zetek
enthusiast
Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 210
Loc: United States
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
#344395 - 06/19/01 12:35 PM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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In reply to:
****As a zygote or embryo, it does not have human characteristics****
It doesn't have human dna as an embreo? Is that not a human characteristic? hmmmmm
Every human cell in a human has human DNA in its nucleus. (Notice how human may be used as an adjective or a noun.) Consider that if every human cell were itself a human, how many millions of humans you would murdering every time you jacked off...;-)
In reply to:
****which I have previously attributed to an advanced cerebral cortex****
Which means nothing because you discount the evolution of the "Human" Embryo as non human...what is it then? an ape?...so let me get you strait....if a person is born with a non-advanced cerebral cortex (like those with cerebral pulsy) aren't human or a person???? ......i would rellay like to hear the answer to that!!
????What?? I'm not following you here.... Let me reiterate... I've stated that I believe that the "wiring up" of the cerebral cortex of a human fetus is when it may be considered a human. I believe this because it is the degree of development of our cerebral cortex that separates us from all other species. A person that is born with Cerebral Palsy (CP) is not lacking a "non-advanced cerebral cortex." CP is caused by damaged to the cerebrum, which is covered by the cerebral cortex. Click here http://www.susiecphome.com/ to see a webpage built by a person with CP. Of course they are a human and a person.
In reply to:
sigh.......yet again just an opinion which you have the right to say. However for every example of non-human i can site an example of Human...so where do we stand....or am "I" being closed minded.
Actually, it is much easier to decide what is not human rather what is human (in my opinion, of course). For the sake of argument, let's say you accept my premise that it is the degree of development of the cerebral cortex that makes us human. I think by definition, you and I would both agree that a chimpanzee is not human. But if we were to precisely examine the human characteristics and qualities given to us by our highly developed cerebral cortex, e.g. consciousness, self-awareness, language, medicine, culture, emotions, altruism, rationality, etc., it's hard to find any wherein chimps don't also possess those qualities. It further goes to the degree of development of those qualites I guess.
Now, before you tell me that by my standard it should still be okay to kill a newborn baby because it isn't self-aware, or doesn't use language, etc., those things are correct but it's not okay to kill a newborn baby (or a fetus in the 3rd trimester, in my opinion.) It has a functioning cerebral cortex of human quality, which is what I require of it.
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