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Offlineentiformatie
EvolutionaryMovements
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: goob]
    #3381082 - 11/18/04 08:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

first, i must define my concept of heaven and hell -
i believe that heaven is used to describethe state before birth (maybe, or maybe it is the state of non-awareness, when we are babies and completely satisfied sleeping and eating),
that purgatory represents the state of living in which we can discover ourselves, accept love, and go to a state of mindfulness and inner satisfaction (or maybe this is heaven?)
hell would be used to describe a state in which one can no longer reclaim themselves
suicide is the only way to ensure hell, because you have completely given up on your life. it is the ultimate sacrilege; you were given a gift, and you wasted it.


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/opinion
.sean


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OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #3381324 - 11/18/04 09:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

>> But what if you were a happy and somewhat enlightened being and was put to jail for 30 of your best years.. Wouldn't you be more prepared for the journey into bardo by commiting suicide now, then by natural and dissillusioned death behind the dark prison walls?

Bardo is a place of uncertainty; it is the intermediary between this life and the next. It is not a realm of it's own because it is a state of being without perspective.

I've heard stories about misguided monks forcing themselves into their next life through suicide. It's not a practice which is encouraged, because a person's karma is vast and unpredictable. Even if we've been a spiritual practitioner for our whole life, it is just one life among countless previous lives. There is no telling what our circumstances will be when we are reborn.

Furthermore, irreversable seperation of mind from body occuring in a happy state of mind increases the probability that we will be reborn in one of the higher realms, such as the god-like realm. In the god-like realm, beings experiences a state of total bliss and comfort. Their experiences of suffering are few and far between. Since they are so blissful, they do not use their cognitive faculties for spiritual discipline and remain as ignorant, samsaric beings. Like the hell being, eventually their karma for pleasure is exhausted and another rebirth is taken within another realm of ignorance and suffering.

From the Buddhist point of view, human beings should try to avoid seperation from our body until we have completely purified our karma through the practice of spiritual discipline.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: Ped]
    #3381673 - 11/18/04 10:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

because a person's karma is vast and unpredictable

If it is unpredictable, then that means it is unverifiable. How can one know that it even exists except as some myth handed down?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineentiformatie
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: Swami]
    #3381707 - 11/18/04 10:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

what i will do this weekend is unpredictable, but it is verifiable


--------------------
/opinion
.sean


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: entiformatie]
    #3381780 - 11/18/04 11:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What you will do this weekend is not a theory of universal balancing of sin/punishment and good act/reward.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePed
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: Swami]
    #3382059 - 11/19/04 12:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Before I answer your question, Swami, let me be clear that I'm not about to justify my beliefs for you. I have my own reasons for exploring and purveying these ideas, and I neither need nor desire your unreasonably rigid prejudgements and criticisms. I'm here to offer the Buddhist view as another view to be considered among many on this topic, and I have no interest in frivolous arguments with stubborn materialists. Consider that my carefully considered acceptance of Buddhist thought is not nearly as firmly rooted as your pejorative rejection of it.

So that, unfortunately for both of us, will be the terms of our dialog.


Now, to answer your question:

>> How can one know that it even exists?

Karma is a special instance of cause and effect whereby our actions are the cause, and our experiences are the effect. Through proper practice, we can adjust all of our actions to generate a specific series of experiential effects, from subtle to superficial. When those effects begin to manifest, we can take this as direct experience of our karmic continuum. This in turn can be taken as verification.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: lucid]
    #3382773 - 11/19/04 04:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

if someone commits suicide they do not go to hell, because hell as the person who said it does not exist.. Yes, the mind-state they were in was of a hell like existence, but when their life energy is renewed to the cycle of the universe they can try all over.. Perhaps they will go down the same road, or maybe they will take the other path.. Hell is your mind and there is no eternity of hell, except your own self inspired one.. You can always fight it, no matter how many cosmo years it will take..


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: lucid]
    #3384636 - 11/19/04 04:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

This debate is very simple for me.

Life is a gift and not to be spat at. Killing yourself is spitting in the face of love.

If there is a place called hell with fire and pain. Then idiots who kill themselves for any reason deserve it. The trip to hell that is.



Errrr BUT...............What if I kill myself to save the life of my child ?????

That would be different. New debate


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3384688 - 11/19/04 04:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

/me spits in the face of love.


:heart: :heartpump: :heart:


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Disclaimer!?


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OfflineGomp
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: Gomp]
    #3384716 - 11/19/04 04:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

""What if I kill myself to save the life of my child ?????""

then you would not know if you saved your child or not, beeing dead and suff?
so that would be kinda like trying to piss when you are pissing?


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Disclaimer!?


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3385063 - 11/19/04 05:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
This debate is very simple for me.

Life is a gift and not to be spat at. Killing yourself is spitting in the face of love.

If there is a place called hell with fire and pain. Then idiots who kill themselves for any reason deserve it. The trip to hell that is.



Errrr BUT...............What if I kill myself to save the life of my child ?????

That would be different. New debate




Have some compassion. Some people are simply emotionally weak. And there is no Hell.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3385167 - 11/19/04 05:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

There is a Hell!! as much as there is Positive and Negative forces.

What each person thinks Hell may be is up to each person.

Hell and Heaven both are very real. Every man will receive his rewards for his actions while living on earth.

Kinda like that SOB Arafat sending all those kids to a suicide death. He is getting his reward right now, Scumbag that he was.


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleBlu Spore
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3385410 - 11/19/04 06:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I would never send a person to hell if I had the power to do so, no matter what they did in this life...does that mean I have more compassion than god? (im asking this as if we knew bad people were sent to hell)

If here on earth we dont believe in torturing our worst criminals than why do they deserve torture after death?


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: Blu Spore]
    #3385416 - 11/19/04 06:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

God does not send anyone to hell. Nether does Jesus of the bible say " GOD sends you to hell " LOL

Words and thoughts of MAN

God has said many times you make your own choice.

If you end up in Hell then you put yourself there not God


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: Blu Spore]
    #3385431 - 11/19/04 06:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JimmytheWorm said:
If here on earth we dont believe in torturing our worst criminals than why do they deserve torture after death?




What planet do you live on again??

The planet I live on. Criminals get torture (both physical and mental) or death everyday and in every country.

The choices you make always result in some action.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleBlu Spore
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3385450 - 11/19/04 06:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


What planet do you live on again??

The planet I live on. Criminals get torture (both physical and mental) or death everyday and in every country.

The choices you make always result in some action.




That is true, people are tortured everyday in countries around the world but I think the majority of people think it is wrong to torture somebody. I would hope its just certain cruel individuals that believe torture is ok. Criminals do get the death sentence in countries like yours but it is mostly done in the most humane way possible. I don?t know the world is a fucked up place


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: Blu Spore]
    #3385464 - 11/19/04 06:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yes there are a lot of humans who think that torture is a wrong choice, but all humans agree that you get what you sow.

Hell is the harvet of what you have done while alive, Simple.

God makes no jugement, you do. God just alows you to have the choice.

Because without choice there is no love, no realationship.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3385522 - 11/19/04 07:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So do regular people. What is the correlation?


As for suicide, obviously any Way with a segment of sympathy to life would not send someone who is troubled enough to end their own life to an eternal black pit where you are burned alive forever. But suicide truly is useless, as the suffering you feel at the time of suicide is fading and temporary in this life, and later, whether it be a few hours or a few years, when you are more balanced again you will be happy that you have had more time in this life to experience it, to come to terms with your suffering and continue to rise to a higher way of thinking.

If you are reincarnated, then suicide is just a hindrance to your rising consciousness, as you have just wasted a good part of a life. If you rejoin the Tao's consciousness, then there was no reason to speed up the process and waste this time of humanity by ending it prematurely, when you could've learned much from it.

Those who commit suicide, though, should be regarded with love and sympathy, just like society would regard any other troubled innocent who has died.

I support the right to die and the individual's choice, nevertheless. I will not press my own thoughts on suicide onto what they decide for themselves


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: Ravus]
    #3385573 - 11/19/04 07:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Burning forever in FIRE LOL

That is not what hell is LOL

That is a description so a person can understand that it is a very bad place,thing,existence to be.

I will not try to understand what hell is after a person dies.

But I feel ZERO compassion for a FOOL who takes his own life. What a very selfish thing to do And very stupid. The people the fool leaves behind to pick up the pieces, they I feel pity and compassion for.

A man does not give himself the gift of life so what right does he have to take it. NONE


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
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Loc: up on the bidet
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: Ravus]
    #3385576 - 11/19/04 07:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for writing that Ravus.
I find it strange that it's so obvious to me logically, but
others do not see the logic.
Here's a list of Contradictions plain and simple
1) Hell - eternal torment for a finite crime
(our lives are finite, what could one possibly do in a
finite ammount to time to justify eternal punishment ?
Does NOT sound very just to me
2) Do I have more compassion than God ? I would NOT create
beings, then give them the ability to do wrong and then fry
them for eternity in Hell... hmmmm... duh.... does this NOT
seem obvious to u folks out there ??!!
Heck, I've been hurt by people, even tortured (in some sense)
at a few points in my life - but I forgive all these people...
it's senseless to want others to suffer...what could I possibly
gain from such a thing ? ego gratification ?
3) I picked suicide on purpose, cause, by definition it's an
act commited by someone who is in intolerable pain, and cannot
find a way out. Now religion sez that this person is to go to
Hell ? along with Hitler ? is there not a difference between
someone who couldn't bear the suffering imposed upon them
(imposed in the sense that they felt there was nothing
they could do to alleviate it) and a person who tortured and
murdered many people ?

These points seem so plain and obvious to me that I cannot
comprehend how someone could miss them or argue them. Even in
this world I doubt that most people who've been hurt and WANT
revenge would want to keep inflicting revenge on that person...
think about this... would they want to keep tormenting and
torturing that person ? for ETERNITY ?


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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