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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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does it bother?
    #3376784 - 11/17/04 11:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

does it bother sane republicans (if there is such a thing :wink: ) that their party has been hijacked by religous extremists?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: does it bother? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3376808 - 11/17/04 11:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm sure it does. I think Bob Barr wrote an article recently on how he would not be voting for Bush.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: does it bother? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3377078 - 11/18/04 01:00 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)


does it bother sane republicans (if there is such a thing ) that
their party has been hijacked by religous extremists?

You could make the same argument about the Democratic Party(how they
kiss ass to the loony Left sometimes).

The extremists are the most vocal, most insane, and most interesting
people in a movement. Their actions tend to overshadow the
moderates(who are usually more numerous).

Both of the parties pander to particular groups(often to the
detriment of the country as a whole). The Democrats use populist
class warfare garbage to appeal to poor voters and the Republicans
use "morals and values" crap to appeal to middle-America and
Christians.


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OfflinePopeHypocriteIII
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Re: does it bother? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3377108 - 11/18/04 01:08 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

We may have different conceptions of what the 'loony left' is (you might even apply that label to me), but the tensions in the two parties are fundamentally very different.

Although the Democrats do attempt to pander to the lower economic strata, their policies rarely reflect their rhetoric. This is a purely subjective judgement, but the Democrats tend to hover over the centre of the political axis, beholden to corporate money to finance their campaigns, but reliant on those low-income voters to actually get them elected (hence the disparity between word and deed). The Republican Party has no compunctions of this kind, but there is a conflict between the secular and religious wings of the party.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: does it bother? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3377133 - 11/18/04 01:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Democrats= Howard Dean
Republicans= Rudy Juliani

Just who is being run by the extremes?

I'm sorry to disapoint you, but the 'religious right' as defined by the Christian Coalition, Moral Majority, etc. has been pretty marginalized within the Republican party as of late. Arnold Schwarzenager is hardly a religious extremist. If anything the party is much more moderate than it was when it took power in 94.

It seems to me that alot of Bush-haters are trying to pin Bush's victory on Christian Fundamentalism because they can't come to grips with the fact that Bush's policies made sense to more people than Kerry's. Religion had very little to do with it.

It's funny that SS7 cites Bob Barr of all people.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


Edited by Divided_Sky (11/18/04 11:39 AM)


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Offlineoggleman
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Re: does it bother? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3377188 - 11/18/04 01:46 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041129&c=2&s=borosagekvh

"Morals trumped economics, even in Ohio," conclude the pundits. But the reality was more complicated. In an election day poll for the Institute for America's Future, taken by Greenberg Quinlan Rosner Research, respondents were split on what factor most influenced their choice. About 20 percent said it was economics and jobs; these people voted two to one for Kerry. About 20 percent said it was the war on terror; they voted three to one for Bush. The 20 percent who named Iraq as most important voted overwhelmingly for Kerry. A similar number chose morals and voted overwhelmingly for Bush, while the smaller percentages that chose healthcare and education went big for Kerry. Where the question was performance--Iraq and the economy, healthcare, education--Bush lost. Where it was worldview--morals and the war on terror--Bush won big.

The way I see it there were 4 major issues: economy and jobs, war on terror, iraq, and morals, all at around 20% of voters a piece. Bush simply won bigger margins on the issues he won, terror and morals.

And for the record, Juliani, although a prick, is NOT a religious extremist.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: does it bother? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3377193 - 11/18/04 01:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
I'm sorry to disapoint you, but the 'religious right' as defined by the Christian Coalition, Moral Majority, etc. has been pretty marginalized within the Republican party as of late. Arnold Schwarzenager is hardly a religious extremist. If anything the party is much more moderate than it was when it took power in 94.



:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:  You're using the governor of California as an example?!  :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:  I hate to break it to ya, but California is a solidly blue state, so the only way the Republicans could gain power here was to put up a moderate.  Not so with the majority of America.

Quote:

It's funny that SS7 cites Bob Barr of all people.



How so?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAhronZombi
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Re: does it bother? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3377411 - 11/18/04 03:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

no thats not what happened. both partys were hijacked by satinists called the illuminati. and the illuminati is useing this party to exploit and use the religious people of the country


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OfflineAaronEvil
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Re: does it bother? [Re: AhronZombi]
    #3377421 - 11/18/04 03:08 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

AhronZombi said:
no thats not what happened. both partys were hijacked by satinists called the illuminati. and the illuminati is useing this party to exploit and use the religious people of the country




:lol: AHAHAHAHA :lol:


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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.


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OfflineAhronZombi
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Re: does it bother? [Re: AaronEvil]
    #3377430 - 11/18/04 03:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

the truth may be hard to swallow and you may think im crazy but it is the truth. stop being a slave to the system of lies they have you all caught up in and stand up to them


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: does it bother? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3377461 - 11/18/04 03:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

http://www.alternet.org/election04/20522/

as a matter of fact..it does...


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OfflineAaronEvil
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Re: does it bother? [Re: AhronZombi]
    #3377494 - 11/18/04 03:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

AhronZombi said:
the truth may be hard to swallow and you may think im crazy but it is the truth. stop being a slave to the system of lies they have you all caught up in and stand up to them




You crack me up AhronZombi.


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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.


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OfflinePopeHypocriteIII
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Re: does it bother? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3377498 - 11/18/04 03:46 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I wouldn't consider Howard Dean to be a lunatic. A poor orator, certainly, but not a lunatic. So categorise me with the lunatics, but I maintain that the Republican Party currently panders more to extreme ideologies and interest groups, be they Christian or corporate. And worry ye not, I'm not disappointed with your reply; neither do I accept the argument that fanatical Christianity has been marginalised. Although the Republican National Convention put on its best moderate costume, their policies since the 2000 election have reflected a strong fanatical Christian bias. For brevity's sake (need to shower soon - it's swelteringly hot here), I'll go straight to the head.

When, in 2002, a California circuit court ruled that the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance were an unconstitutional endorsement of religion, George Bush stated that "we need common-sense judges who understand that our rights are derived from God. Those are the kind of judges I intend to put on the bench."

He maintains that both evolutionism and creationism should be taught in schools. "The jury" was evidently "still out" on evolution, c. 2003.

He named Jesus as his favourite political philosopher. His rhetoric of 'good' and 'evil', combined with his assertion that America's liberty is derived from God make him the most Biblical president in recent memory - perhaps in the history of the country.

He has endorsed "faith-based initiatives" such as the diversion of public funds from social security to faith-based charities and tripling funding for 'character education' ("to teach our children right from wrong"). His stance on abortion is also largely faith-based.

And despite these, each of which demonstrates a worrying amount of influence from Christian lobbies or biases the man holds entirely of his own volition, we're only scratching the surface. None of these things indicate a moderate outlook as far as I am concerned, and Bush has appointed officials who have even stronger views than his own to high public service positions. The waning separation of church and state in the USA is very important to me - and i don't even live there.

I think that Christian fundamentalism did play a significant role in his victory. Not the only factor, by any means, nor even necessarily the dominant one, but the current administration is, at the very least, unduly partisan. And yes, I agree: Kerry lost the election because he was an inadequate candidate. I maintain that this is the case for different (perhaps even contrary) reasons than you do, it appears, but we can at least agree on that.

Edit: meant to reply to a different post. Just clearing up the ambiguity.


Edited by PopeHypocriteIII (11/18/04 03:52 AM)


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OfflineAhronZombi
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Re: does it bother? [Re: AaronEvil]
    #3377537 - 11/18/04 04:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Too bad your too brain washed to see the truth, and that its no joke. but the revolation will come


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OfflineAaronEvil
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Re: does it bother? [Re: AhronZombi]
    #3377543 - 11/18/04 04:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

AhronZombi said:
Too bad your too brain washed to see the truth, and that its no joke. but the revolation will come




Just because I think you are funny doesnt mean I dont agree with you.


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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: does it bother? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3377829 - 11/18/04 07:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

does it bother sane republicans (if there is such a thing ) that their party has been hijacked by religous extremists?




it's been that why for some time, you're just now noticing?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (11/18/04 03:05 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: does it bother? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3379512 - 11/18/04 02:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)


I'm sorry to disapoint you, but the 'religious right' as defined by
the Christian Coalition, Moral Majority, etc. has been pretty
marginalized within the Republican party as of late.

The extreme Christian Right is usually ignored when it comes to
crafting policy(but they get attention in the press because of how
nutty they are). The Republicans pander to the "moderate" Christian
Right. These people don't want gay marriage, they believe in God,
and they want a leader who believes in God. A lot of people
consider that "extreme", but I don't. I consider the extreme
Christians to be the people who think the government should follow
the scriptures, prophecies from the bible should be taken into
account when crafting government policy, etc..



Arnold Schwarzenager is hardly a religious extremist. If anything
the party is much more moderate than it was when it took power in
94.

Arnold is a very liberal Republican. He is not indicative of how
most of his party thinks.


It seems to me that alot of Bush-haters are trying to pin Bush's
victory on Christian Fundamentalism because they can't come to grips
with the fact that Bush's policies made sense to more people than
Kerry's.

I think Kerry lost the election because of the following reasons:

1. African-Americans almost always vote democrat. But, they also
tend to dislike gay people. The only way for the Republicans to
reach out to them was to speak out against gay marriage.

2. Kerry had no discernible plan for Iraq. He said, "We'll get
our allies involved" or "the U.N. should get more involved". Our
allies aren't going to help us(France and Germany will never send
troops). The U.N. is a useless and feckless organization that
packed up and left after a bomb hit their headquarters. The only
way things will get fixed is if America does something.

3. Kerry allied himself too much with the loony left(Micheal Moore
for example). He also was seen too much with famous actors and
musicians. This was a big mistake. Americans like to see actors
and musicians perform. The second an entertainer starts
pretentiously blabbing about their political beliefs, most normal
people immediately are turned off. America does not like it when
entertainers go political!! And to be seen with people like that
is a major fuck up.

4. Kerry came off as a phony. He seemed a tad bit condescending
and unlikeable. Bush may speak and blunder like an idiot, but
he seems like an idiot you could have a beer with.

5. The groups that Bush pandered to have more members than the
groups Kerry pandered to. There are more Christians in this
country than there are bleeding heart liberals. Although the
bleeding heart liberals seem to have more power and influence in
the media(Hollywood for example) and in certain areas of government
policy(ACLU type areas for example).


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