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 Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater
Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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 Quick UN Poll 
#3373134 - 11/17/04 08:26 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I know there are wide differences in how many of us view the UN, its purpose, its ties to various countries, its problems. I just want to do a quick poll on how people feel towards it.
edit: sorry, I meant to make it so you could pick more than one. If two different choices seem appealing to you, say so. Or have your puppet vote for the second one.
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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?
Edited by Gijith (11/17/04 10:33 AM)
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
 
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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 Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: Gijith]
#3373559 - 11/17/04 10:35 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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while i definitely dont oppose the principle of the UN..i still voted that the US should get out of the UN and they should get out of NYC...theres nothing the UN can do to stop the neocons..which leaves the proverbial "plan B" ..speed up the train until it runs off the tracks...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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 lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 13 years, 20 days
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: Gijith]
#3373592 - 11/17/04 10:45 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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U.N. BLOOD MONEY, we can now trace money from the U.N. to suicide bombers. there should be prison time for some people at the U.N.
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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"
We have "reckless fiscal policies"
America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.
Americans deserve better
Barack Obama
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zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic
Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: Gijith]
#3373598 - 11/17/04 10:46 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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The UN should reform itself into an internationalist political party in the United States.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: Gijith]
#3373709 - 11/17/04 11:10 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I figured I'd be a little different from my fellow libertarians and chose #3. I think the UN could serve a good purpose as an international forum for resolving conflicts peacefully, but they definitely shouldn't act like a governing body in their own right.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater
Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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Would libertarians normally choose #4 and #5? Or just #5?
I also prefer choice #3, but I wonder if the UN could realistically reform itself so radically.
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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
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Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: Gijith]
#3374190 - 11/17/04 01:13 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think most libertarians would choose #5. But you bring up a good point. Since #3 is highly unlikely, #5 may be the best option we have.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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oggleman
Stranger
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Posts: 281
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I'm surprised that you libertarians aren't pro-UN cause they are trying to set limitations on how much power our government can gain.
The UN is an organization designed to avoid and/or end wars and keep peace and enforce human rights laws on a global scale, NOT to be a "world government" Opposing the UN is kinda similar to opposing gun laws.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: oggleman]
#3377321 - 11/18/04 12:33 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Opposing the UN is kinda similar to opposing gun laws.
Uh...we libertarians do oppose [most] gun laws.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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PopeHypocriteIII
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I voted that the United Nations should expand its influence in terms of humanitarian aid, peacekeeping and in ensuring that elections are democratic. I don't think the world's future will get any brighter unless we manage to embrace international co-operation - and I also do not believe that individual nations will behave altruistically. I do recognise the current sovereignty of the nation-state, but I also believe it will eventually become obsolete, or at the very least greatly diminish in importance.
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oggleman
Stranger
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I know, but you see my analogy. The UN and gun laws are both designed, at a base level, to save lives and end violence. You oppose them both. America's message to the world: "Our right to carry a gun and consume as much as humanly possible and accrue enormous amounts of wealth and power and crush anyone in our way is more important than your right to live or self govern or feed your family." No wonder the world hates us.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
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Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: oggleman]
#3377381 - 11/18/04 12:57 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Oh, and the UN doesn't try to impose it's will on other countries? 
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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oggleman
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/04
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Quote:
Oh, and the UN doesn't try to impose it's will on other countries?
 THE UN IS NOT A COUNTRY!!! The UN is made up of representatives from many many countries. Its not a separate entity. Anything the UN does requires a certain level of concensus from a large numbers of nations. If you ask me that gives it the right to impose its will on "other countries".
Besides you completely ignored my point, and that is our civil liberties are not more important than the right of iraqi babies to not be blown up.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: oggleman]
#3377425 - 11/18/04 01:09 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
oggleman said:
Quote:
Oh, and the UN doesn't try to impose it's will on other countries?
THE UN IS NOT A COUNTRY!!! The UN is made up of representatives from many many countries. Its not a separate entity. Anything the UN does requires a certain level of concensus from a large numbers of nations. If you ask me that gives it the right to impose its will on "other countries".
Of course. You've made it abundantly clear that you believe majority rule supercedes individual rights. By this same logic, the US government cannot "impose" its will upon the American people, since it is comprised of their elected representatives.
Quote:
Besides you completely ignored my point, and that is our civil liberties are not more important than the right of iraqi babies to not be blown up.
WTF??? What do Iraqi babies and our civil liberties have to do with each other?
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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oggleman
Stranger
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: oggleman]
#3377439 - 11/18/04 01:18 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm done with you, SS7, there is no hope for you. Not to mention this "I know better than you" baditude. I'm always on the defense with you. It is you and only you that makes this forum unpleasant. You do everything short of calling everyone on here a fucking dumbass and you only don't do that cause of the no flaming rule. So you just use this pseudo-intellectual attitude that makes you feel smart and good about yourself. There is no discussion with you, only argument, I feel sorry for your family and whatever friends you may have for having to put up with you.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: oggleman]
#3377450 - 11/18/04 01:22 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm looking over my post, and still can't figure out how you inferred all that from reading it. Could you please just address my points? I'm genuinely curious to hear your perspective on them. While I don't feel that I act arrogant most of the time, I apologize if I come off that way. If it is me and only me that makes this forum unpleasant for you, I'd like to know how to change that(other than reducing my intelligence or posting less). I'd like to help make this place more welcoming for everybody.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
Edited by silversoul7 (11/18/04 01:30 AM)
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AaronEvil
The GuitarVillain
Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 1,706
Loc: California
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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I have never had problems with SS7 and I am pretty sure we disagree on some issues.
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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater
Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: AaronEvil]
#3377505 - 11/18/04 01:48 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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His baditude is a major problem.
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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: Gijith]
#3377530 - 11/18/04 02:06 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I suppose sometimes I do get a little overbearing, and I apologize, since I hate it when others do that(ie pinksharkmark and TaoTeChing). I don't mean to belittle people, but I don't see what was wrong with what I just posted. I was just inferring what had already been established.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: oggleman]
#3377699 - 11/18/04 04:17 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
oggleman said:
I'm always on the defense with you.
He's just right more often so it's only natural for you to feel that way.
Quote:
It is you and only you that makes this forum unpleasant.
Hey! What about me? And there are several others who are far worse.
Quote:
You do everything short of calling everyone on here a fucking dumbass and you only don't do that cause of the no flaming rule.
But so many are dumbasses.
Quote:
So you just use this pseudo-intellectual attitude that makes you feel smart and good about yourself.
Actually he's gotten much smarter since he first started posting and as such should feel good about himself.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Stein
Stranger
Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 35,129
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: oggleman]
#3377707 - 11/18/04 04:26 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
oggleman said:
It is you and only you that makes this forum unpleasant.
I can think of 20 others that make this forum unpleasant, and ss7 isn't one of them. So, if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: Gijith]
#3377740 - 11/18/04 04:49 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Bye Bye UN, come back when you grow some balls.
#5
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
Edited by Innvertigo (11/18/04 05:08 AM)
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zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic
Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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Still angry coz the UN gave the Iraq war a no go?
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Not in the least. Why would you imply that?
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: oggleman]
#3377782 - 11/18/04 05:11 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm done with you, SS7, there is no hope for you. Not to mention this "I know better than you" baditude. I'm always on the defense with you
you're probably on the defense because you tend to be wrong. Just a thought.
Quote:
It is you and only you that makes this forum unpleasant.
I disagree, the whining and complaining isn't coming from SS7.
Quote:
You do everything short of calling everyone on here a fucking dumbass and you only don't do that cause of the no flaming rule.
drrrrrrrrr.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater
Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:
I suppose sometimes I do get a little overbearing, and I apologize, since I hate it when others do that(ie pinksharkmark and TaoTeChing). I don't mean to belittle people, but I don't see what was wrong with what I just posted. I was just inferring what had already been established.
I was kidding, man. oggleman's rant couldn't have been further from the truth. I just couldn't let his use of the word 'baditude' go unnoticed.
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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: oggleman]
#3379538 - 11/18/04 01:02 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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The UN is made up of representatives from many many countries. Its
not a separate entity. Anything the UN does requires a certain level
of concensus from a large numbers of nations. If you ask me that
gives it the right to impose its will on "other countries".
And why the hell should America subjugate itself to an organization
that is half populated by representatives from dictatorships
and thug-run shitholes?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
oggleman said:
Quote:
It is you and only you that makes this forum unpleasant.
Hey! What about me? And there are several others who are far worse.
Yeah, and what about me? What am I, chopped liver?? SS7 is nowhere near as obnoxious as I am. My sense of superiority far outweighs his. With good reason I might add.
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Krishna
कृष्ण,LOL
Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,285
Loc: oakland
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i say the UN should reform it's basic policies to include the principles of economic democracy, sustainable development, and a system of participatory economics. Oh - and recognize the corrupt and inherently un-equal system of world government that we have today (where an elite of 1% runs everything - you may be able to vote, but they set the bloody agenda!), and turn all it's energies to working with the movement seen in the World Social Forums. Oh - and work to stopping China and India from following down the same path of exploitation, materialism, and unsustainable development that has already engulfed the western world.
 anybody think any of those are going to happen anytime soon? 
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 13 years, 20 days
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: Krishna]
#3381031 - 11/18/04 06:36 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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that will happen soon if we all stop working hard, then the poor countries can catch up in about 200 years.
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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"
We have "reckless fiscal policies"
America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.
Americans deserve better
Barack Obama
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Krishna
कृष्ण,LOL
Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,285
Loc: oakland
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said:
that will happen soon if we all stop working hard, then the poor countries can catch up in about 200 years.
"catch up"? the only reason the western world has developed to where it has is due to the massive exploitation of the 3rd world... there's no feasible way for the developing world to ever become "equal" to us - simply because there are no other countries left for them to steal resources from, no native populations to exploit with no labour standards, etc.... my suggestions will only occur if we recognize the inter-connectedness of the entire world, the un-sustainability of our current mode of existence, and the fact that only with a re-evaluation of our way of life might the planet stick around for much longer...
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: Krishna]
#3381115 - 11/18/04 06:50 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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And well gee how did that happen?
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Krishna
कृष्ण,LOL
Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,285
Loc: oakland
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
And well gee how did that happen?
i'm not sure i get your question? i mean, it's sort-of the history of the world that answers it... there are a lot of reasons for why we are where we are today - i think the more important question is - do we currently live in a "fair and just" world? is the direction we are heading in towards a more "fair and just" world? is it towards a more "sustainable" world? unless i totally missed your question, in which case - could you explain more?
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 13 years, 20 days
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: Krishna]
#3381288 - 11/18/04 07:22 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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krishna what are we in the western world suppose to do. give away my computer and stereo??? billions of people do not even have a place to plug it in.
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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"
We have "reckless fiscal policies"
America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.
Americans deserve better
Barack Obama
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater
Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: Krishna]
#3381325 - 11/18/04 07:31 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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As far as I'm concerned, the UN, in it's current state, is what makes it hard for the world to be 'fair and just.' Same with the WTO. If the UN got it's nose out of elections and economics and development, would international relations and trade be less fair? Less just? I don't think so.
The world needs a place where leaders can meet and discuss issues in an open arena and make agreements and have debates. The world does not need an all encompassing super government. If some countries want to band together, as Europe has done, I say more power to them. When you try to include everyone, giving every country a hand in matters which may only affect a small localized area of the world, things start to get ugly and open the door to tyranny.
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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?
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Krishna
कृष्ण,LOL
Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,285
Loc: oakland
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said:
krishna what are we in the western world suppose to do. give away my computer and stereo??? billions of people do not even have a place to plug it in.
certainly not! i'm not really a "back to the earth" type of person - i mean, we can't deny the great advances that, for example, medical technology has given us. however, we could say "enough is enough" - that the pattern of un-equal distribution of resources and wealth, of "free trade" practices that result in MNCs dominating over local business, of a complete disregard for indigenous populations (both human, animal, and plant), etc - should stop. following a model of participatory economics (search Parecon on google), we could ask for community control of, well, everything. at the end of the road, i don't think an organization like the UN would be necessary. it certainly is welcomed as a forum where communities - not political leaders (who, in i'm sad to say, all of the world, represent the interests of the top 1%) - can come together to discuss questions that have global impact (for example - pollution - who can say that global warming is a problem that doesn't extend beyond national borders?) so what are we in the western world to do? well, i would say don't support companies that violate the rights of people in the developing world (or the rights of people in the developed world, for that matter), pressure our governments to actually live up to their rhetoric of "freedom, equality, and the pursuit of happiness", work to stop the corporate dominance of agriculture that is leading to a very dangerous monoculture of crops - there are many different areas that people in the west can work in, depending upon their own personal interest. the main step, in my opinion, is to recognize that all of humanity should benefit from the wealth of knowledge that humanity has developed - when people in the developing world die of easily curable diseases such as malaria or TB, simply because "it would upset the markets" to give away medicines - when the EU and the US dump tons of un-used food into the ocean because their government subsidies have resulted in an instable food market - you know, i think it's just not right. another world is possible - it's just a question of do we want it?
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 13 years, 20 days
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: Krishna]
#3381813 - 11/18/04 09:07 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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i like the community control idea. we have large turnouts in my community for presidential elections, but low turnouts for local elections.
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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"
We have "reckless fiscal policies"
America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.
Americans deserve better
Barack Obama
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Krishna
कृष्ण,LOL
Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,285
Loc: oakland
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Take a look at this, lonestar, and see what you think: http://www.parecon.org/intro.htm
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DirtMcgirt
in a pinch
Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2,213
Loc: city of angels
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Re: Quick UN Poll [Re: Krishna]
#3382249 - 11/18/04 11:08 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Down with the UN, down with the WTO, down with the IMF, down with the world bank. Modern colonialism with only catch up with us
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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."
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