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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
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Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream?
    #3367109 - 11/16/04 01:24 AM (12 years, 21 days ago)

Just now I was concentrating very hard on the sounds of cars driving down my block and began to grasp one of the main facets of Eastern religion: that everything is Mind. The cars, my senses, my analysis, are all the experience of a singular mind. My mind is experiencing my mind. With this observation it seems possible to conclude that life is just like a dream, because like a dream, it exists only in your mind. I think this experience is where beliefs that consciousness is all that exists come from, that we experience the limit of our awareness, our awareness.

However, this is all from an internal view. Looking at the situation externally through science we see that our senses are created by nerves, a central nervous system and a brain. These sensory devices act to register phenomena to be experienced by the consciousness.

From this observation it seems not that Mind is ALL, or that life really is a dream, but rather Mind is all we experience. That should be pretty straightforward thinking, but it is actually very profound. We do not experience reality directly, we experience our senses and our mind. So in effect, the world we live is us, is our minds.

The Eastern view seems to be based around using the initial experience of dream-like reality to dissasociate with reality and it's problems. It is emphasizing the oneness within the mind, but denying the interconnectivity outside of it.

However, it seems incorrect to conclude that nothing exists outside of the mind simply because it is all we experience. It is very apparent that the senses we experience are designed to register some outside phenomena.

Personally I feel much better attempting to connect to reality than emphasizing my disconnect. I think it kind of sucks to be alone in your mind, trapped with nowhere to go. The thought that there really are other people, that the world really does exist, and is much bigger than my own mind, seems much healthier than denying it's existence. It is sort of a matter of faith, because we simply cannot know directly, but I think it's better to believe in life outside oneself than the nihilist/solipsistic approach that all is within. Maybe it's just because I get depressed when I start to think that way, but perhaps that happens for a good reason.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3367156 - 11/16/04 01:39 AM (12 years, 21 days ago)

Life is not this nor that.

Life just is.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream? [Re: zorbman]
    #3367224 - 11/16/04 02:02 AM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Science is beginning to discover that the senses consist of outer stimuli, like sound waves, crossing our own wavelengths that each of our senses emit. As if it were nothing more than frequencies out there, and our brain, using these wavelengths, translates it all. Using this information, holophonic sound is in the works. :smile:

http://www.musicbakery.com/sfxdimen.html


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Offlineskystone
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Re: Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3367876 - 11/16/04 09:59 AM (12 years, 20 days ago)

I would't say that you are alone just because it is all perhapse a dream.
What if we all dream our dreams, but still communicate and have relationships.
Imagine us having different forum skins, and chating here.
You have a yellow skin and I have a green one. We allso have a built-in translator into our skins. So we start talking about skins, and
you say "I have a yellow skin" , the translator of my forum-skin give me your message as "I have a green skin" I say, yea, "I have a green skin too" and I post it here. Your translator gives you a message
"I have a yellow skin too" and we keep on thinking that we have same skins.
Now try to use this model on the whole universe, on a gigantic scale, for every little detail of our individual dreams.
Perhapse you percieve us as floating in fluid, and I percieve us as walking. And now when you read this, you got the reverse meaning of these words and say "silly, I see us walking too" and In fact you said "floating" and I understood "walking"
that way communication would be like this:
"We are all >insert your vision of transportation<"
So not only our minds create reality, but they shape-up symbolic-technical level communication so we all think we see and hear the same things. But in fact the only real thing may be our telepathic communication.
YOu may say that this kind of communication is not real, and it is all a lie. Well it's not.
Imagine indians and us talking. They have their word for dance and
we have our word for dance. So we can still communicate if we we have some kind of translators. It is not a lie.
Now imagine that not only we have different word for dance, we have
a different visions of dance, different visions of EVERYTHING and a translator, only not a language translator but a "symbol translator"


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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Offlineskystone
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Re: Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3367882 - 11/16/04 10:01 AM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

the_phoenix said:
Science is beginning to discover that the senses consist of outer stimuli, like sound waves, crossing our own wavelengths that each of our senses emit. As if it were nothing more than frequencies out there, and our brain, using these wavelengths, translates it all. Using this information, holophonic sound is in the works. :smile:

http://www.musicbakery.com/sfxdimen.html




I that kind of a version of "reality" where everything is a dream,
science would not prove anything because it is a part of that dream.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream? [Re: skystone]
    #3368050 - 11/16/04 11:06 AM (12 years, 20 days ago)

""Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream?""

what would be the difference?


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Disclaimer!?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3368317 - 11/16/04 12:30 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

the_phoenix said:
Science is beginning to discover that the senses consist of outer stimuli, like sound waves, crossing our own wavelengths that each of our senses emit. As if it were nothing more than frequencies out there, and our brain, using these wavelengths, translates it all. Using this information, holophonic sound is in the works. :smile:





Another interesting thought. :wink: :thumbup:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3368758 - 11/16/04 02:27 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

"So dreaming lets you know reality exists?"
"No, just my mind. I don't know about everything else."
-Animatrix, Matriculated

"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is reason, its essence." -Katha Upanisad 6.7


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream? [Re: Viaggio]
    #3369125 - 11/16/04 03:56 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

since when is denial healthy? :lol:

I think we can say that everything we know stems from what we experience.

Everything that is considered consensually true is only a shared human experience.

Of course, tapping into this collection of 'truths' is through one's own individual experience.

So if everything we have and know is directly what we experience, it can then be said that we (or atleast the interpretting mechanism from 'reality' to 'perception' or 'void' to 'perception' of 'reality' :wink:) are the sole "creators" of our unique realities.

So everything, relative to our concept of everything] does exist in the mind. One may argue that sciences brings forth concepts of objective and consensual reality, which supposedly exists underneath perception, but this knowledge and pursuit of science is all individual experiences molded together into an individual experience of seemingly objective experience. It's still just as much a self created perception to examine strucutures under a microscope, as it is to learn about people studying this, as it is to dream

So yeah, it's all in the mind. There may or may not be more exisiting outside of this, but anyway to attempt to examine or hypothesis about this internalizes the "external" (if such a thing exists :wink:)


'I look out as far as I can see; yet this image is still inside of me'


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream? [Re: Viaggio]
    #3369128 - 11/16/04 03:56 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

fantastic post

" think it kind of sucks to be alone in your mind, trapped with nowhere to go. "

you are not alone, because yourself is infinite, and in the dream it is divided into billions of unique parts. Life and dreaming, and dreaming life, is the process of discovering, and interacting with parts of your self.

Trust me you Have EVERYWHERE to go in your mind. your mind is as large as the universe and you could explore its bizarre landscapes and inhabitants for a billion years and never run our of novelty. this is the true miracle of dreams, they allow us to experience OURSELVES subjectively, as if from outside.

This is also the miracle of life.


"but I think it's better to believe in life outside oneself than the nihilist/solipsistic "

it depends. the basic premise (reality is basically a dream) can be taken to various conclusions. one you mentioned is nihilism, the belief that nothing has any value. This is entirely different from solipsism, which is simply belief that the universe is internal, mental, a dream.

Someone who is solipsistic, like me, is not at ALL nihilistic. I look around me every day and say 'my god what a fantastic dream' this kind of life is a fantastic adventure, it is exploring yourself and your nature and the dream realities around you.

it can also grant increased control over the dream. simply realizing how many of your boundaries and limitations are self imposed and illusory is the first step to shaking them off/transcending them.

It also opens one to realms of experience otherwise shut out. it does away with conciousness duality, dividing things into the real and the hallucinotory. rather the solipsist sees reality as a continuum. dreams, trips, waking life, all are of the same esssential nature and validity, but characteristically they are different.

the solipsist can enjoy each state for its uniqueness and not shut out any single one. He learns as much from the self imposed limitations (like gravity for example) of waking life as he does from the infinite capabilities of dreaming life.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


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Offlinekbilly
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Re: Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3369170 - 11/16/04 04:10 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

i think that you fundamentally misunderstand eastern or buddhist thought. maybe a bit more reading would clarify some of their ideas even if the realization of these ideas are sopossed far harder.
i suggest hui nengs comments on th daimond sutra.

"The Eastern view seems to be based around using the initial experience of dream-like reality to dissasociate with reality and it's problems. It is emphasizing the oneness within the mind, but denying the interconnectivity outside of it."

on this specicif point i would say quite the opposite, the are not trying to disocaite from reality the are indeed trying to get closer to it. they are trying to be minfull of what is going on by concetrating on being in the moment. what they say is that by queiting the senses eg mediation and other tecs, you may experience and learn to experience the the immediate reality without emotional(feelings) and perceptional(seeing only what you want) bias brought on by previous experience of similar situations, eg live in the present uninfluenced by past and the idea of future as the maintain there is only the now and past and future do not exist - cannot be lived.

as ytou conyinue this practice of non judgement and detachment(not from reality but from desire) -only mind- without desire(for pleasure) or aversion(for pain) you indeed will stop judgeing justr living, then will also start to lose your old aversions eg the layers of previous experience built up on yourself, indeed your ego. as these layers peel of you become better at seeing clearly eg just being, as part of this process is the recognition of how certain emotions feel, recognizing them and stopping yourself from acting on them eg event - sense - recognition and then instead of normal reaction, you act without desire or aversion eg you act correctly to the situation as it really is.

my 5 cents


Edited by kbilly (11/16/04 04:15 PM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3371265 - 11/16/04 10:37 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

If life is a dream, then everything, including yourself, is made of this dream. You are all united in this.

If everything is Maya, then you yourself are Maya, and it becomes no different than if everything is matter and energy

Everywhere, whether it is all Maya, matter or just a dream, is in constant flux, constantly dying and being reborn. Everything goes into everything else. The Maya exists because we see existence as the present, life seems a dream because we separate the flux into understandable portions rather than seeing what we are because of what came before and what will come after.

In this sense we do create the dream and illusions of existence, at least temporarily, until death or enlightenment change our perception


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream? [Re: Ravus]
    #3371302 - 11/16/04 10:44 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

All the human does is dream. As a society we have agreed upon certain points in order to describe our dream to others, but one can never really know another's dream due to the inherant subjectivity of our experiences. At night while we sleep we just lack a material frame of reference so our dreams become free form. Many people let society determine the nature of their dream, but to experience freedom one must become "lucid" in this waking dream and assume responsibility for it's content.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3371552 - 11/16/04 11:26 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

I can't see why this seems so great to some people, why you would chose to believe it. Hmmm...being completely alone in your existence, which has absolutely no point or meaning, where everything is just as superficial as a cardboard cutout, trapped in a tiny awareness with nowhere to go, and it's all a dream you can never wake from. I'm not sure if people really realize the implications of this, by most logic it is truly awful. I can't see how this idea is anything other than nihilism. It seems like you would have to be jacked up on heroin to accept such a worldview.

Given the choice I would rather connect with the world around me than dwell in my own solitary dream of apathy where nothing matters.
Logically, although you can speculate endlessly that my orange is your blue, it is pretty evident that at the fundamental level of phenomena and sensation we all experience the world pretty much the same. It makes more sense that objective reality does exist in some form than not, and it seems less depressing and pointless.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


Edited by Divided_Sky (11/16/04 11:33 PM)


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3371619 - 11/16/04 11:36 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

This is not about choice nor which one makes you feel better :smile:

This is about a search for what-is, even if it's only a subjective snapshot of something unseeable.

We are all connected in the sense that our true awarenesses are all the same conscious being. However, to talk in duality and physical seperations of self, an inseparatable veil is created, isolating the fragment inside it's own existence. The other fragments, relative to its perception, are not at all external - but rather internal interpretations of an assumed similar external source.

The thing is, if you move out in relativity to the singular being, it may seem all 'gee-wiz comfy' that we are together again. Not so :laugh:. This singular being is alone too in it's existence.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat :cool:


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream? [Re: deff]
    #3371633 - 11/16/04 11:40 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

All I'm saying is that given the choice between being an island universe completely unto myself, or being a part of a larger interconnected universe, or even a web of interconnected island universes, I do not see why anyone would want to emphasize the singular experience.

You can either take the awareness of the mental dream and choose to associate or dissasociate with others experiences. The choice to dissasociate is not satisfactory to me and I can't see why everybody thinks its so great.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3371695 - 11/16/04 11:56 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Yes, but the belief in either does not change whatever the actual result is.

This is a search for actuality, even if it's subjective unto ourselves.

All signs, to me, point towards isolated realities, and so that is what I beleive. No one said it was a 'great' belief, it certainly isn't 'fun' at all, but it's a step closer to infinity :cool:


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Is life a dream, or do we experience it as a dream? [Re: deff]
    #3371732 - 11/17/04 12:06 AM (12 years, 20 days ago)

You might have a point. Somewhere in my mind I heard a voice saying "Whether the outside world exists or not, it cannot help you."

I'll have to think about this. But I still think objective reality exists.

(Now that I have thought about it for a bit, it still seem important to believe in objective reality because otherwise you can easily believe nothing is real and nothing matters.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


Edited by Divided_Sky (11/17/04 12:10 AM)


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