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InvisibleSwami
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Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good
    #3359937 - 11/14/04 02:48 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

Fictitious, but very possible:

Young 24 year-old newlywed, Susan, waves good-bye to her husband as he leaves for Viet Nam in 1968. Six months later she gets a note from the Army: "Your husband is M.I.A." She never gives up hope that he is still alive. The war ends and the P.O.W.s return home. She is in constant contact with Washington and checks the news and the lists of those returning regularly. It is 1972, nearly four years later and all GIs are home that are coming back.

Friends and family urge the still young and attractive Susan to move on; to start a new life. She gets many suitors, but refuses to even go on a casual date. She is still in love with Tom, her husband, and stares at his photo and says a prayer for his return every night.

Now Susan is 60, a lonely, aging and reclusive widow, who missed out on starting the family that she had dreamt of as a young girl because she held out hope.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: Swami]
    #3359978 - 11/14/04 03:04 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

Haha.. certainly is possible.

But once again you are drawing out an extreme to debunk a generalization.

One should certainly not say that anything is ALWAYS anything.

But the way you pose this statement lays bait for the presumption that you are attacking the concept of optimism and hope, when in actuality it is the concept of certainty and stubbornness that should be in question.

I hope that this response will help keep it clear to the readers that it is the "always" part that is the error, and not the concept of optimism or hope.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3360015 - 11/14/04 03:11 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

Sorry, you are not getting off that easily. Your post was only half complete.

To clarify your point, you should define where you draw the line between "stubborness and certainty" and "optimism and hope".


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3360020 - 11/14/04 03:13 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

the problem in your example is not optimism and hope itself, but rather the focus of that hope. A person in this womans situation who did not maintain that optimism and hope would have been crushed by despair, possibly driven to suicide, and led a miserable life.

A better choice would be to maintain optimism and hope that life can go on, happiness can be reclaimed, there is still much to live for, etc etc.

However, your point is well made, and i will reneg (is that a word) on a previous statement. Optimism and hope, in terms of specifics , is not always the best.

being optimistic that jumping out of a plane will result in the sprouting of wings is not good.

However, i still maintain that optimism and hope as general principles or thought, are always (yes ALWAYS) more beneficial to ones life and enjoyment of life than the opposite traits, pessimism and hopelessness.

Clinging to impossibilities as the sole source of hope is unwise. (like in your example) but hope in general, hope for a good life, and optimism, the belief that things are basically good etc, are always wise choices.


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Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: Swami]
    #3360053 - 11/14/04 03:24 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Sorry, you are not getting off that easily.





Sure I am.

Quote:


To clarify your point, you should define where you draw the line between "stubborness and certainty" and "optimism and hope".




That is a subjective thing for each person to figure out for themselves.

I'd only further clarify my point if I was the woman in question. And I'm not.

P.S. To further illustrate THAT point: Sorry, but you're not the one who gets to decide whether or not I get off that easy. I am.

Peace out, bruddah.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3360124 - 11/14/04 03:44 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

:grin: :thumbup:


""P.S. To further illustrate THAT point: Sorry, but you're not the one who gets to decide whether or not I get off that easy. I am. ""

why is it not ME who gets to decide that?  :wink:

:heart: :thumbup:

"That is a subjective thing for each person to figure out for themselves."


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Disclaimer!?


Edited by Gomp (11/14/04 03:49 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3360139 - 11/14/04 03:47 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

Someone said there is a human in your sig picture, but all I see is wallpaper... :rastamon:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: Swami]
    #3360140 - 11/14/04 03:48 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

Valid point but flip it around.

Perhaps, if she wallowed in the polar opposite and wallowed in extreme misery?

What exactly are you trying to say?
Sometimes optimism is bad? Or perhaps optimism does not equate to happiness? I dont understand what your point is.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflinePedM
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: Gomp]
    #3360289 - 11/14/04 04:26 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

Well I think that went a whole lot better than LAST time.

In this scenario, it's helpful to remain optimistic and hopeful. What's not helpful is to allow that optimism and hope to interfere with one's ability to accept the reality of the situation.

If Susan were to remain optimistic until it became clear that her husband was not going to return, she would spare herself a lot of needless pain, and ease the length and intensity of her grief. However, if she grasps too tightly to the hope that her husband will one day return, Susan creates a dissonance between what she wants and what is.

If Susan were to give herself to pessimism and despair before her husband's fate had become certain, she would be rejecting a reality had not yet even appeared to her, and at the same time setting herself up for a habitual rejection of the reality that her husband was not going to return. In this example as much as the previous one, there is a gap between what Susan chooses to believe and what's real.

Optimism and hope have the potential to serve us as much as they do to obstruct us. Optimism is a feverent hope that what we wish will be the same as what comes to pass. Optimism does not necessarily equate to non-acceptance of what is. Simply because someone chooses to remain optimistic does not mean that they are caught in some form of denial.

Pessimism, on the other hand, is characterized by the outright rejection of a reality that is yet undetermined. It is the presupposition that the worst outcome will be what comes to pass.

Which of these has greater value to human beings?


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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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Offlinestefan
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: Swami]
    #3360512 - 11/14/04 05:33 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

Yeah optimism and hope are always good, but you also need to know when to let things go and move on


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: Swami]
    #3361390 - 11/14/04 08:50 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

The example you chose was poor. No amount of hope will bring back the dead. Hope can boost one's determination, though. Attitudes can indeed influence our actions, and to deny this is futile. One sees evidence of this daily in life. If a disfunctional person expresses hope in an unhealthy way it in no way reflects on the actions of healthy people.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3361612 - 11/14/04 10:06 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

A poor example? It has happened.

I never said hope cannot influence one's actions. Of course an internal state can affect internally generated behavior. The point is that mental states do not bend external reality to one's will. Hope can be creative or destructive; it is not always a positive thing as some here have postulated.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: Swami]
    #3361949 - 11/14/04 11:32 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

so why get caught up? its just one degree removed. hope on its own i agree wont 'bend reality' but you agree that hope influences action , and action certainly influences realtiy.

She can 'bend her reality' by acting in ways that will be best for her happiness and health, and that relies first on the mental state she has. So in a very real and clear sense your mental states affect your reality.

Reality is composed of internal and external aspects. internal mental and emotional states (happy versus sad etc) and external reality. Both of these states can be hugely influenced by our mental state, and hope is good for both of them.

I dont think anyone would deny that thought without action doesnt change reality.

A metaphysical explanation for that would be that we are multifaceted beings, composed of mental, physical and spiritual elements, and if all of those elements are not brought into agreement, changing reality does not occur, if you are thinking one thing and acting in a way that contradicts it, you are setting yourself up for failure, you are giving reality mixed signals.

an example with the old woman: if she sits around being hopefull that her life will be happy again in the future but never gets out of the house to live, she is giving herself contradictory signals.

If i want to further world peace and hope for it but act violently in my daily life, i am contradicting myself/

the book conversations with god talks about the triad force that can bring your reality to change in accordance with your will as thought, word and action. all 3 acting together are a powerfull force for change.

What you are doing is discrediting thoughts role in the equation, because you are being to short sighted in your assesment. You see that it is always action that brings the noticeable change in reality, but you are forgetting that without the sponsoring thought, no action occurs. Pessimism and despair (the opposites of optimism and hope) will always paralyze your ability to act effectively. Thus optimism and hope are always the better option


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: Ped]
    #3362049 - 11/14/04 11:57 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

"?


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Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (11/21/04 05:59 PM)


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3362075 - 11/15/04 12:05 AM (12 years, 24 days ago)

it would be most effecitve for the gambeler to stop gambeling.


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Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: Swami]
    #3362083 - 11/15/04 12:08 AM (12 years, 24 days ago)

"The point is that mental states do not bend external reality to one's will."

Our external reality is in large part determined by our internal dialog. Before we can create something it has to be visualized in the mind first. That does not mean that anything that we visualize will become reality, but our will determines our condition to a great extent. Our society is the result of a collective vision. Your statement is a generalization that does not prove true in every instance. Very often we use our will to bend our external reality. I lost 100 pounds of weight due to my will in recent years. My external reality was greatly altered.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineSource
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: Ped]
    #3362148 - 11/15/04 12:27 AM (12 years, 24 days ago)

Great post Ped!

I agree with your asessment.

It could further be argued that pessimissim will more likely lead to the unfavorable outcome. Perahps because of one's own deeds or perhaps because (if you're from the mind makes reality camp) one has simply chosen the negative reality to inhabit.


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What you're searching for is what's searching.


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OfflinePeyoteZen
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: Source]
    #3362755 - 11/15/04 04:57 AM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Are "optimism" and "hope" the same thing in this situation?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3362832 - 11/15/04 06:16 AM (12 years, 23 days ago)

I lost 100 pounds of weight due to my will in recent years.

Weight loss = more calories expended than ingested. This is basic physics (law of thermodynamics) no matter how you may try to clutter it with neurotic behavior. Hopeful or hopeless mindstates are irrelevant to the actual mechanics involved. If you are hopeful and eat 4500 calories per day you WILL gain weight. If you are hopeless and eat 1800 calories per day you WILL lose weight.

Self-defeating behavior or the cessation of it (as in your case) has nothing to do with the bending of external reality with strictly a mindset as outlined in the opening case in this thread wherein the woman had ZERO control over her husband's aliveness or deadness.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good [Re: Swami]
    #3362864 - 11/15/04 07:01 AM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Now Susan is 60, a lonely, aging and reclusive widow, who missed out on starting the family that she had dreamt of as a young girl because she held out hope.




why is this outcome necessarily bad? is it bad being alone? is it bad to be reclusive? is it bad to be faithfull to someone we'll never see again? how many of our dreams don't really come true?
you tell us what she missed out, but what did she gain? is wisdom only to be found through hapiness? does the fullfilment of dreams bring hapiness?


"i never tended flocks,
but it's like if i did.
my soul is like a shepherd,
it knows the wind and the sun
and walks by the hand of Seasons
following and looking.
all the peace of Nature without people
comes to seat by my side.
but i get sad like a sunset
to our imagination,
when it cools at the end of the plain
and we feel the night coming
like a butterfly through the window.

but my sadness is rest
because it is natural and fair
and it's what is suposed to be in the soul
when it already thinks it exists
and the hands pick off flowers and it doesn't notice.
(...)"

alberto caeiro, "the tender of flocks" (*free* translation from portuguese)


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