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Offlinericelicker
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Condensation, Temps, & Humidity
    #3346957 - 11/11/04 04:07 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

So TD has a double tub setup, followed EatUAlive's grow log.

He checked it yesterday and was disappointed by numerous aborts and what he jokingly calls banzai shrooms (mini but mature)

He thinks the humidity may be too low, therefore drying out the substrate and robbing the myc of water. There is very little condensation on the walls but it looks nothing like the double tub pics in EatU's post.

Here's the question:

Is it possible to have 90-95% humidity and have little or no sign of condensation on the walls? I remember reading somewhere that condensation will only appear when there is a big enough difference in temp between the inside of the chamber and the outside. TD noticed that when he put a full ice tray on top to cool the air down a little, he almost immediately saw the entire top wall of the chamber get foggy and water droplets appeared.

He just wants to defeat the aborts. How can you tell when you've packed the polyfill properly?

And if humidity isn't the problem? Why is he getting these miserable results?


--------------------
"my brain waves travel at half the speed afta we..." -del tha funkee

"Two men looked out through prison bars...one saw the mud, one saw the stars." -anonymous


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Offlinediscman1
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Re: Condensation, Temps, & Humidity [Re: ricelicker]
    #3346975 - 11/11/04 04:09 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, that is correct. You will only get condensation on the tub walls if the room temperature is lower than the in-tub temperature. So it is entirely possible to have 100% humidity and no condensation.

As for the aborts, dunno.


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InvisibleKyKid
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Registered: 10/22/04
Posts: 605
Re: Condensation, Temps, & Humidity [Re: discman1]
    #3346989 - 11/11/04 04:12 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

how many times did you open it up to look in it, your not supposted to open it till harvest to hold in the humidity if your opening it once a day it does no good.


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Offlinericelicker
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Re: Condensation, Temps, & Humidity [Re: discman1]
    #3347008 - 11/11/04 04:14 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

OK discman my brotha. Thank you for verifying the temp difference thing. So we can now eliminate humidity as a reason for the aborts becasue when he puts the ice tray on there, he can see tons of condensation.

So......

What else could it be? It could be lack of fresh air, but I thought the double tub tek was supposed to be king for this (neglect tek). Is temp too high a possibility? That was why he originally put the ice tray on there, becasue he thought the temp was too high.

I also read that a flux in temp can lead to aborts too. Maybe stop using the ice? I don't know, I feel hopeless.

*rips out hair*


--------------------
"my brain waves travel at half the speed afta we..." -del tha funkee

"Two men looked out through prison bars...one saw the mud, one saw the stars." -anonymous


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Offlinericelicker
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Re: Condensation, Temps, & Humidity [Re: KyKid]
    #3347012 - 11/11/04 04:15 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

KyKid said:
how many times did you open it up to look in it, your not supposted to open it till harvest to hold in the humidity if your opening it once a day it does no good.




I have not opened it since I cased and I don't plan on opening it until I harvest.


--------------------
"my brain waves travel at half the speed afta we..." -del tha funkee

"Two men looked out through prison bars...one saw the mud, one saw the stars." -anonymous


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Offlinediscman1
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Re: Condensation, Temps, & Humidity [Re: ricelicker]
    #3347033 - 11/11/04 04:17 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

It could be air exchange. Don't you have a thermometer in there? Temp should be ~76?F.

Are you using perlite or geolite? How big is the tub? What is your air pump rated at?


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InvisibleKyKid
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Registered: 10/22/04
Posts: 605
Re: Condensation, Temps, & Humidity [Re: ricelicker]
    #3347034 - 11/11/04 04:17 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

well you got me then. good luck though i hope you get some monsters instead of the small ones but hey the small ones hit the same.


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Offlinericelicker
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Re: Condensation, Temps, & Humidity [Re: discman1]
    #3347343 - 11/11/04 05:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

discman1 said:
It could be air exchange. Don't you have a thermometer in there? Temp should be ~76?F.

Are you using perlite or geolite? How big is the tub? What is your air pump rated at?




Just to clarify, this is a Double Tub, not a poorman's pod. There is no geolite/perlite/hyrdoton etc and no air pump. This is a bulk neglect tek and the only air exchange is done through holes in the chamber stuffed with polyfil. The original thread is here:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3026085/an/0/page/0

It is pretty inspirational, I just wish I knew what to do about these aborts.


--------------------
"my brain waves travel at half the speed afta we..." -del tha funkee

"Two men looked out through prison bars...one saw the mud, one saw the stars." -anonymous


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Offlinediscman1
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Re: Condensation, Temps, & Humidity [Re: ricelicker]
    #3347430 - 11/11/04 05:25 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Ahhh..

I'm going to bet that is your problem.

I don't think you can get adequate air exchange with just passive ventilation........ especially with polyfill plugging the holes.


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Offlinericelicker
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Re: Condensation, Temps, & Humidity [Re: discman1]
    #3347586 - 11/11/04 05:50 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I think that you can get adequate air exchange with passive ventilation based on the results in this log:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3026085/an/0/page/0

He mentioned NEVER having to open the tub EXCEPT to mix, case then harvest. Besides that he NEVER opens the tub. Not once.

But the key seems to be how tightly the polyfil is stuffed. TD can't seem to get it right. He originally pulled it out to be a little looser, put the ice tray on top, and started giving it light all to initiate fruiting (3 triggers). But it seems either the polyfil adjustment or the flux in temp caused the abort problem.


--------------------
"my brain waves travel at half the speed afta we..." -del tha funkee

"Two men looked out through prison bars...one saw the mud, one saw the stars." -anonymous


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InvisibleSam1912
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Re: Condensation, Temps, & Humidity [Re: ricelicker]
    #3347807 - 11/11/04 06:36 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe I'm wrong... but from those pictures, the density of mushroom in the casing is pretty low. I'd think it'd be better using poo. 12oz BRF cakes give me little less than 1 oz dry per flush... Yeah, I think the yield is still not as good as can be with that setup.

I do think that you can get enough air using passive, just not ideal. It doesn't take much air flow if you think about it. Even a large 200liter per hour is very little air movement. That's like enough wind to move the tub(hypothetically tub and its content would be as light as air) about 3 feet in an hour. That's like 3feet per hour wind...

I guess I'm not recommending this tek... mostly because you leave air exchange to mother nature when you can proactively take control with pumps. I admit it! I'm a control freak! And I like it that way.

Sam


--------------------
Protect your civil rights!  End drug prohibition.  And if you don't care about your civil rights, protect mine!

If you want a rating from me, please PM me.  For those really newbies, don't expect an answer back, but you can try me anyways.


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: Condensation, Temps, & Humidity [Re: Sam1912]
    #3347875 - 11/11/04 06:51 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Sam may I ask you, in what kind of setup do you have your cakes? Is that martha, PmP, different?
Do you filter your air supply?

Thanks!

MF


--------------------


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InvisibleSam1912
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Registered: 09/23/04
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Re: Condensation, Temps, & Humidity [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3347880 - 11/11/04 06:54 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

6 PMPs in 2 closets. I might try a grow closet later, but I'm experimenting a lot and can't afford to change the setup without compromising the experiments. And yeah, all my pumps have in-line filters.

Sam


--------------------
Protect your civil rights!  End drug prohibition.  And if you don't care about your civil rights, protect mine!

If you want a rating from me, please PM me.  For those really newbies, don't expect an answer back, but you can try me anyways.


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Offlinericelicker
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Read the whole tek! [Re: Sam1912]
    #3348091 - 11/11/04 07:55 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sam1912 said:
Maybe I'm wrong... but from those pictures, the density of mushroom in the casing is pretty low. I'd think it'd be better using poo. 12oz BRF cakes give me little less than 1 oz dry per flush... Yeah, I think the yield is still not as good as can be with that setup.

I do think that you can get enough air using passive, just not ideal. It doesn't take much air flow if you think about it. Even a large 200liter per hour is very little air movement. That's like enough wind to move the tub(hypothetically tub and its content would be as light as air) about 3 feet in an hour. That's like 3feet per hour wind...

I guess I'm not recommending this tek... mostly because you leave air exchange to mother nature when you can proactively take control with pumps. I admit it! I'm a control freak! And I like it that way.

Sam




I'm really not trying to be rude, but apparently no one is really reading the whole tek. He doesn't explain it all on the first page, you have to read all of EatU's posts in that thread.

If you read it, you would know that he already uses poo (worm castings) and that the air exchange is IDEAL because the CO2 builds up in the bottom, moves out the low holes (because it's heavier than air) and the chamber sucks in fresh air from the top holes. Plus you might want to research air entrainment (not entertainment), there is a benefit to having CO2 mixed with fresh air.

It's funny how many times EatU goes on to say that the key to this tek is to LEAVE IT ALONE and not try and add anything fancy like pumps etc. I don't know what pic you're looking at, but the density of mushrooms in the pictures I'm seeing is wonderful.

I guess I'm looking for EatU really, or someone with double tub experience, maybe I'll PM him.


--------------------
"my brain waves travel at half the speed afta we..." -del tha funkee

"Two men looked out through prison bars...one saw the mud, one saw the stars." -anonymous


Edited by ricelicker (11/11/04 08:06 PM)


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Offlinediscman1
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Re: Read the whole tek! [Re: ricelicker]
    #3348151 - 11/11/04 08:08 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

IMO, you can never have too much fresh air.

The air should be exchanged every 4-6 hours.. With a pump, it is easy to calculate how much air is being displaced per hour. There is no way to tell with a passive setup.

If it works for you, great. If it doesen't(ie: if you're having problems.....), you need to reevaluate your setup. That's what we're trying to help you analyze. It would be simple to see if air exchange is your problem, start fanning and see if things change.


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InvisibleSam1912
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Re: Read the whole tek! [Re: discman1]
    #3348264 - 11/11/04 08:29 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

entrainment requires flowing fluid. If the only air exchange is from exhaust from CO2, it's not entrainment. Also, not all CO2 will escape. And of course there is ALWAYS some amount of natural circulation. The balance seems like something that can be explored... but I doubt that any numerical model can come out unless the test was done with extreme controls of environments(which means same room, air baffled from any vents/doors etc..., simultaneous grow, even mixing of substrate, even timing of substrate, etc.. etc..) which would require way too many invalidating conditions. It's easy to think that exiting CO2 will bring in 1 fresh O2. But what about N2 which is 79% of the air? All gas molecules take up same space by number right? Don't simplify this down to CO2 out and O2 in. It doesn't work like that. Natural circulation and forced circulation caused by conditions inside and outside is what gives it enough fresh air.

I don't think it's a very impressive yield, anyways.

Sam


--------------------
Protect your civil rights!  End drug prohibition.  And if you don't care about your civil rights, protect mine!

If you want a rating from me, please PM me.  For those really newbies, don't expect an answer back, but you can try me anyways.


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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: Read the whole tek! [Re: Sam1912]
    #3348278 - 11/11/04 08:33 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Sam, you trip me out man, lol, keep it up, Awesome shit


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InvisibleSam1912
journeyman

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 2,142
Loc: Cali
Re: Read the whole tek! [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #3348326 - 11/11/04 08:46 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

oh.. let me add one more thing... let's talk some secret government info. i won't actually disclose any specific numbers, though, for ovious reasons.

With decades of upgrades and finessing with natural circulation(water in this case) nuke reactors can run upto 40% power safely at steady state operation. Water has a lot more circulation because of its density. With forced circulation using injection pumps(entrainment) reactor oviously goes upto 100% safely. Keep in mind that maintaining higher level safely requires exponential flow(exponential power of 3 plus the extra safety margin). 4 pumps running on hundreds of kilowatts is needed to maintain that level... So, why not just use nat circ? Simple, because it's reliable and gives consistent results in addition to being able to do more than what nature does. And when dealing with air which has less nat circ, you can easily spend 2-3 watts to enhance the circulation and get better results.

Sam


--------------------
Protect your civil rights!  End drug prohibition.  And if you don't care about your civil rights, protect mine!

If you want a rating from me, please PM me.  For those really newbies, don't expect an answer back, but you can try me anyways.


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: Condensation, Temps, & Humidity [Re: ricelicker]
    #3354945 - 11/13/04 10:59 AM (12 years, 30 days ago)

In line filters you say, homemade? Or you bought it somewhere?


--------------------


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