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 Morgue Juice
journeyman
Registered: 05/06/00
Posts: 41
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 Determained Randomness 
#334622 - 06/04/01 10:28 PM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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Just something I've been milling over lately.. is the future determained? If you could calculate the movement and interaction of every atom(subatomic) in the universe over say 5 seconds, could you work out the next 'frame' in time and so forth for ever?
Even if there is free-will involved, it's still part of cause and effect on a subatomic level. If history can't be changed, then the future can't be either.
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Hoeken
newbie
Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 18
Loc: iowa
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Re: Determained Randomness [Re: Morgue Juice]
#334702 - 06/04/01 11:15 PM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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hey, i've thought about this before too....but its definately not possible. it's going to be difficult to explain this, but i'll give it a shot. to simulate ALL the interactions, you would need to simulate all the way down to the subatomic level. i'm assuming that you would be using some sort of computer for this. well, to do this, you'd have to store information of all the atoms...location, movement vectors, magnetic/electric charge, etc. well, how are you going to do this? you cant store it in RAM, because it would take massive amounts of memory to store info on just 1 atom, in conventional terms...say 1k of memory. well, think of the amount of atoms needed to create the storage material for that...most likely in the millions or billions. now think about that ratio: millions/billions of atoms required to store info about 1 atom!?!? it would be impossible
the only way we could do this is to find a way of storing info in something smaller than an atom...quantum physics shit. you'd have to deal with the spin states of atoms and funky jazz like that.
i love stuff like this...its so fun. my favorite thing to do, and i think ya should try this...is smoke/trip and go to a rave. go up and listen to the music. my favorite is trance, but i have enjoyed myself while listening to hardcore/deathcore. i just close my eyes and let the music take me. i dance if i feel like it, and i just think. i let my imagination get carried away on to things like life, the universe, WHAT THE HELL ARE THINGS, and stuff like that...it's practically a religion for me and it gives me those cool shiver things that run down your back.
peace
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www.neuroatomik.com
--------------------
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www.neuroatomik.com
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djfrog
omgws!!!1!
Registered: 10/22/00
Posts: 3,710
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Re: Determained Randomness [Re: Hoeken]
#334785 - 06/05/01 12:11 AM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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hoeken I was totally going to give your response but figured it wasn't worth typing it all.
But I wanted to add that even quantum computers wouldn't work, because if you're relying on behavior at sub-atomic levels then well you're going to have to model things at subatomic levels and the problem of needing space for representation stays.
This is also my basis for not believing in any all-knowing beings or gods.
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Morgue Juice
journeyman
Registered: 05/06/00
Posts: 41
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Re: Determained Randomness [Re: Hoeken]
#334891 - 06/05/01 04:13 AM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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Cool. Thanks for the replies. Certainly makes sense about not being able to store the infomation. Even if you were able to store the info sub atomically, by doing that you can't store the info about the atoms you're storing the info on because it becomes a paradox.
About the music, I have a mate that DJ's Drum & Bass so I usually get a good dose of that stuff. :)
Cheers.
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Pynchon
Slow Learner
Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
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Re: Determained Randomness [Re: Morgue Juice]
#334998 - 06/05/01 08:19 AM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah, theres no way you could ever actually perform an equation like this, but in principal the future probably is determined. My reasoning is this: Einstein showed that space and time are basically different facets of the same thing; so if a physical dimension (say a straight line) can extend indefinetly and all points along it exist simultaneously, time shouldn't be any different. So maybe we can't affect our futures', but we're prevented from knowing one way or the other anyway...catch-22.
Theres a cool Kurt Vonnegut novel called Slaughterhouse 5...in it theres a race of aliens that can see through time (not as cheesy as it sounds) and they describe a human being as a giant millipede, with the legs of a baby at one end and old man legs at the other...classy.
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 Crobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 12 years, 29 days
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Re: Determained Randomness [Re: Morgue Juice]
#335007 - 06/05/01 08:32 AM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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I thought this was philosophical question.
And this computer based answer is not satisfying.
____________________________________
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http://www.shroomery.org
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djfrog
omgws!!!1!
Registered: 10/22/00
Posts: 3,710
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Re: Determained Randomness [Re: Crobih]
#335012 - 06/05/01 08:37 AM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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As a rule, good philosophy is never satisfying. :)
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Pynchon
Slow Learner
Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
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Re: Determained Randomness [Re: djfrog]
#335035 - 06/05/01 09:11 AM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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heh...well said.
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Determained Randomness [Re: Morgue Juice]
#335042 - 06/05/01 09:36 AM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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The problem with trying to calculate every (sub)atomic interaction would be that you would require at least one (sub)atomic particle per calculation. The data you'd be trying to calculate would *always* be far beyond the operating capacity of the computer. Not to mention the bizzare paradox of calculating the machine that is calculating the future (wouldn't that lead to some kind of insane feedback loop?). Maybe you could make approximates.
As for the latest set of physics, quantuum theory seems to state that the Universe is subject to probability waves, and that's about as predictable as it gets so far.
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Determained Randomness [Re: Crobih]
#335044 - 06/05/01 09:39 AM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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> I thought this was philosophical question.
And this computer based answer is not satisfying.
Quit whining and contribute then dipshit. What would you like us to do, prepare a philosophical 7 course meal for you?
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auto59009
enthusiast
Registered: 05/20/01
Posts: 376
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 22 years, 10 months
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Re: Determained Randomness [Re: Kid]
#335864 - 06/06/01 02:58 AM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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quantum laws say that you can never know the exact position of even a single sub-atomic particle. this is simple enough. position is determined by velocity and other components. the problem is, to measure velocity we need to see what we are measuring, yet the very act of providing light to the s-a particle will change it's velocity. its position then becomes a matter of space-time position, velocity, and the UNCERTAINTY of its space-time position.
i may not have explained this as well as i intended. check out "a brief history of time" by hawking. it contains most of the valuable physical/philosophical concepts.
I am a compulsive liar
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I am a compulsive liar
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wacamaster
member
Registered: 10/19/99
Posts: 85
Last seen: 22 years, 9 months
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Re: Determained Randomness [Re: Morgue Juice]
#336012 - 06/06/01 09:08 AM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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There is no free will. If you lived a life and ended up, say a doctor living in a blue house on Wall St. sitting in a blue chair at 10:45. If you rewound time so you were being born in the exact same setting and time as before, so all your surroundings around you would be the same, your brain would make the exact same choices as it did in your first life therefore causing you to become a doctor in a blue house on wall St. in a blue chair at 10:45. So if it ends up the same every time, your point at the end of your life has already been determined.
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djfrog
omgws!!!1!
Registered: 10/22/00
Posts: 3,710
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Re: Determained Randomness [Re: wacamaster]
#336029 - 06/06/01 09:34 AM (23 years, 4 months ago) |
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But right so what is that impact of the universe being predetermined. Does that change anything?
case in a point: A Russian nihilist soldier is in a foxhole in WWII when he starts thinking about the determined nature of the universe. He thinks to himself, if I'm going to die today, I'm going to die today, and there is nothing I can do about it. He mentions this point to his neighbor, and to demonstrate his point he runs across no man's land with his arms in the air waving about yelling "I'm a nihilist" and is shot dead.
And so the sense that we can make good or bad decisions is still true, yes we are certainly finite and mortal but we don't need to run across no man's land thinking different behaviors have only one possible outcome. The sense of self and free will is there and true just because we are finite, and it won't suddenly disappear because we don't believe in it.
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Determained Randomness [Re: auto59009]
#336845 - 06/07/01 07:15 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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or you could just look up Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle on Yahoo.
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Faaip_De_Oiad
as above, so below
 
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 1,947
Loc: Malice, Tx
Last seen: 2 years, 28 days
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Re: Determained Randomness [Re: djfrog]
#337473 - 06/07/01 11:26 PM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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I always thought that "destiny" was a cop out. People don't want to admit that they are fuck ups, and they want to believe that it's not their fault.
But I never thought of it in a scienticfic point of view, I *do * believe what the guy before you said, that people wold make the same choices in the same situations, and the situations would always be the same because the people *in* the situations would have made the same choices, which would create the same situation, (this is why I think that when traveling back in time *everything* you would effect the future) and for the situation with our Russian friend, he came upon those thoughts, because of all the situations he's been in, and then once he's come upon those thoughts his brain, and the way it works, *makes* him do those things, I may be missing the point of your story, but I believe that we only have a *sense* of free will
Take off every 'zig' ...for great justiceEdited by Faaip_De_Oiad on 06/08/01 01:39 AM.
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Faaip_De_Oiad
as above, so below
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 1,947
Loc: Malice, Tx
Last seen: 2 years, 28 days
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Re: Determained Randomness [Re: Hoeken]
#337481 - 06/07/01 11:35 PM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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In response to the post about not being able to store the information, It looked to me like he was asking *if* you could simulate all the reactions would this be possible, sorry if I misinterpreted his post.
Take off every 'zig' ...for great justice
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hunterthompson
I climb rocks
Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 189
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Scientifically you would need a G.U.T which is the holy grail of Quantum physics and mechanics. About the whole running out onto the battlefield thingthat is predterminded by the way his brain works if he is gonna do that or not. Yes, all things could be predicted but who cares it is practically impossible and not worth figuring out what is going to happen for a few seconds in the future.
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Pynchon
Slow Learner
Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
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Actually there are already many potential Grand Unified Theory's (GUT's)...the holy grail of physics is the TOE, or Theory Of Everything. GUT's unify only three of the four fundamental forces (electromagnetism and the strong and weak nuclear forces). TOE includes gravity, or more accurately a quantum theory of gravity. This was the proverbial bug up Einsteins ass; he refused to accept the validity of quantum mechanics and spent his final days trying to explain it away. And yes, if there were such a theory of everything, it would describe the entire history (from start to finish) of the universe...but, for reasons others have already stated, it would not be possible to use it to make any predictions about future events in a particular individuals life.
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Determained Randomness [Re: Pynchon]
#337834 - 06/10/01 09:16 PM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't see why a TOE couldn't include a random variable, if such were included in the very nature of the Universe.
Then the TOE would be quite useless and physicists would be out of jobs.
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Pynchon
Slow Learner
Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
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Re: Determained Randomness [Re: Kid]
#338123 - 06/11/01 05:18 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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It would include a random variable - Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle...so yeah, any prediction would have to operate within the limits set by that theory. But those are pretty broad limits; the effects of the uncertainty principle are negligible except under extreme conditions - birth of the universe, collapse of stars, etc.
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Determained Randomness [Re: Pynchon]
#338310 - 06/11/01 10:46 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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The Uncertainty Principle says that solid matter could pass through solid matter, but that it's not all that likely. But if you wanted to predict the Universe entirely then you'd have to get right down to sub-atomic particles (or strings) and it would all fall apart as some kind of infinite variety of probability futures.
New theories however could always come up with a reasonable explanation for the Uncertainty Principle and dispute it (for example, string theory could be complete without any variables). We won't know until we get there
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