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Offlinelonestar2004
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michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2
    #3345834 - 11/11/04 10:44 AM (17 years, 22 days ago)

as long as that fat bastard keeps on representing the democratic party the democrates will continue to lose.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3345837 - 11/11/04 10:46 AM (17 years, 22 days ago)

no as long as people are still being fear-mongered by color coded alert systems and diversionary wars democrats will lose


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InvisibleStein
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3345844 - 11/11/04 10:49 AM (17 years, 22 days ago)

That man may be the sole reason john kerry lost the election. Who knows, maybe he is double undercover secretly working for the right.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Stein]
    #3345847 - 11/11/04 10:50 AM (17 years, 22 days ago)

karl rove did it.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3345852 - 11/11/04 10:54 AM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

no as long as people are still being fear-mongered by color coded alert systems and diversionary wars democrats will lose




Whatever helps you sleep at night.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3345877 - 11/11/04 11:04 AM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
as long as that fat bastard keeps on representing the democratic party the democrates will continue to lose.




I think Moore is a closet Republican. He sure has helped them out a lot.

As long as we have conspiracy nuts like Oliver Stone and Michael Moore, no one will ever see the act of questioning the official story as anything but insanity.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Offlinenycomyco
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Stein]
    #3345888 - 11/11/04 11:07 AM (17 years, 22 days ago)

John Kerry and the democrats were the reason that John Kerry and the democrats lost the election.


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InvisibleStein
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: nycomyco]
    #3345902 - 11/11/04 11:12 AM (17 years, 22 days ago)

I agree, and their idiocy of letting this fatass sponser their party ruined everything. So we are both right...they are plain stupid.


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: nycomyco]
    #3345919 - 11/11/04 11:18 AM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

nycomyco said:
John Kerry and the democrats were the reason that John Kerry and the democrats lost the election.




john kerry was a bad candidate, that is why he lost... his voting record, war record were easily spun against him...also being from massachucettes didnt help...he didnt connect with the "folks" (as bill oreilly would say) ...i think howard dean would have been better, if only he hadnt screamed like a maniac


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Offlinethegnomeking
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3346006 - 11/11/04 11:50 AM (17 years, 22 days ago)

I would have made a better candidate. yall shoulda voted for me. Fuckers :doggystyle: :dumblol:


--------------------
1.Thou shalt not alter the consciousness of thy fellow man.
2.Thou shalt not prevent thy fellow man from altering his own consciousness.
-Timothy Leary


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3346107 - 11/11/04 12:18 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

no as long as people are still being fear-mongered by color coded alert systems and diversionary wars democrats will lose




Quote:

John kerry was a bad candidate, that is why he lost...




hmmmmmm....

Which one of these reasons is true?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineoggleman
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3346269 - 11/11/04 01:10 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Don't you guys pay attention? The democratic party is in shambles, no good leadership, no unifying philosophy, no guts. They can't stand up for the working man anymore and point their finger at wall street and the republicans as blame for the poor economy, because they are all invested in wall street and benefitting from corporate power, just like republicans. So these kind of meager, vague descriptions on how you plan to implement minor change isn't going to cut it. In other words they're not democrats anymore. Thomas Jefferson must be rolling over in his grave. We can not be shy when it comes to being critical of the republicans.

I'm counting on Howard Dean to pull the dems' shit together, he's a fuckin reckloose, he's got the passion and the energy to inspire the whole party. Remember his explosion at the convention? That guy's got some nuts.

But speaking of Michael Moore, he's a good example of doing for the dems what bush did for himself. He helped solidify the dems' support base, but pushed away republicans and probably a few undecideds in the process.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: oggleman]
    #3346307 - 11/11/04 01:25 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

I'm counting on Howard Dean to pull the dems' shit together,




*sniker*


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblesucklesworth
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3346369 - 11/11/04 01:43 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

have you turned democrat on us?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: sucklesworth]
    #3346411 - 11/11/04 01:55 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

why in the world would you say that?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: sucklesworth]
    #3346417 - 11/11/04 01:57 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

i like dean, because he is not afraid to say who he is. the party needs to get a new chairman. terry mcfuck is no good.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3346418 - 11/11/04 01:58 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

I'm counting on Howard Dean to pull the dems' shit together,




*sniker*




at leats dean has a message and is strong.. he isnt a flip flopper trying to suck up to everyone...exactly what the dems need


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3346513 - 11/11/04 02:20 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

All the dems need to do to win is to rename their party to the neo-con party. This will confuse the neo-con's so badly that they will no longer know who to vote for.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3346548 - 11/11/04 02:31 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

at leats dean has a message and is strong.. he isnt a flip flopper trying to suck up to everyone...exactly what the dems need




didn't seem to help him in the primaries.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineTao
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3346561 - 11/11/04 02:36 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

thats because all people wanted was 'someone who could beat bush' and they thought the sole attribute of being a veteran would catapult kerry to success (they were wrong). who was saying during the primaries "gosh i really like kerry's stances" or "i like his energy and charisma".


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Tao]
    #3346579 - 11/11/04 02:43 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

I'd like to see Dean run against Candidate "X". I wonder how long it would take him to break down and kill someone?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3347469 - 11/11/04 05:30 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

I think it's funny to hear "John Kerry was a weak candidate. We should have nominated Howard Dean instead!" Ironic that it was Kerry who got nominated because Dean was not electable (most Republicans I knew where hopeful that Howard Dean would win the primary)


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineTao
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3347632 - 11/11/04 05:58 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

i saw howard dean in person, he is not like the video and snapshots of him yelling would have you believe.


that said, he would not win in 2008, dems need a southerner. he might have at least done better than kerry this year however, because he could have been a hell of a lot stronger against the iraq war due to not having voted for it. he also could have attacked the spending since not only had he overseen the balance of his state's budget, but he did not vote for all the spending increases like kerry. plus he was the opposite of kerry in terms of not being a careful politician, staying on both sides of the issue trying to please everybody, which middle america and many other hated. finally his high approval by the nra might have prevented people from thinkin "he gonna take ar guuuns!!"


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Tao]
    #3347826 - 11/11/04 06:41 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

plus he was the opposite of kerry in terms of not being a careful politician, staying on both sides of the issue trying to please everybody




Liberals always try to appear like they're on both sides, that's why they lose. This has been going on for some time but it peaked during Clinton.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3347835 - 11/11/04 06:43 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

plus he was the opposite of kerry in terms of not being a careful politician, staying on both sides of the issue trying to please everybody




Liberals always try to appear like they're on both sides, that's why they lose.  This has been going on for some time but it peaked during Clinton.



So that's why Clinton served two terms? :smirk:


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineTao
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3347852 - 11/11/04 06:47 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Liberals always try to appear like they're on both sides




Unlike 'compassionate conservatism' :rolleyes:


and Clinton/Blair's Third Way was a legitimate change in policy for the left, not just rhetoric.


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: silversoul7]
    #3347858 - 11/11/04 06:48 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

so, it still doesn't mean that he didn't do it.

He served two terms because he was a smooth talker. But he always stuck his finger in the air to make his decisions. I'd like to have a president with his speaking and communication skills in an Independent platform.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Tao]
    #3347869 - 11/11/04 06:50 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Unlike 'compassionate conservatism'




I don't see the connection since compassionate conservatism, to me, was still based off of conservative ideals.

Quote:

and Clinton/Blair's Third Way was a legitimate change in policy for the left, not just rhetoric




how's that been working out for them?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3347938 - 11/11/04 07:12 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

'Vert... Bush used to say, "Compasionate Conservative" in the same breath as "Uniter not a Divider."

He meant he'd cross party lines.

He hasn't done this... even you must admit, the nation's devided, not untied.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Rose]
    #3348085 - 11/11/04 07:53 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

That certainly isn't his fault. Democrats turned that one against him almost instantly saying "Unless you do everything we want you are not a uniter" They were the ones who would not compromise, despite Bush's ridiculous spending bills they approved.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3348102 - 11/11/04 07:57 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

OK DS, since, obviously, you feel Bush is a moderate.

Name some things he has done that have NOT inflamed America's liberals.

Clinton went out of his way to appease Republicans.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3348128 - 11/11/04 08:02 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
i like dean, because he is not afraid to say who he is. the party needs to get a new chairman. terry mcfuck is no good.




It's weird, but deep inside of me, I like Howard Dean.  I liked him much better then Kerry in the primaries.  I guess I like the fact that he's not afraid to stand up at the podium and get all fired up.  I'm tired of all these walking stiffs that we have for politicians, reading off tele-prompters and memorizing speeches all the time, being obscenely politically correct.  It was refreshing to see someone with that much passion, even if I didn't agree with 100% of his plans for the country. 

As for Michael Moore...I wish he'd give it a rest.  :thumbdown:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3348137 - 11/11/04 08:04 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
That certainly isn't his fault. Democrats turned that one against him almost instantly saying "Unless you do everything we want you are not a uniter" They were the ones who would not compromise, despite Bush's ridiculous spending bills they approved.



Where do you get this idea that outrageous spending in and of itself is supposed to appease Democrats? It's a matter of how it's spent, not how much.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: silversoul7]
    #3348142 - 11/11/04 08:05 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Clinton was WAY more fiscally responsible than Bush.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineTao
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3348214 - 11/11/04 08:21 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

compassionate conservatism was an attempt to say "hey i don't want to pay welfare, but i still want to help people (including through medicare)". it was an attempt to be stingy yet generous. classic example of trying to be on both sides. all politicians do it, left and right, its what being a politician and winning votes is about.

Quote:



how's that been working out for them? [Clinton/Blair]




Let's see, clinton won both his races, gore won the popular vote which in all other democracies i know of would have been a victory, and blair's government has been in power for 12 years now, likely extending it even longer next year. so pretty good i'd say.


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Tao]
    #3348293 - 11/11/04 08:38 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

7 years...:)


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Invisibleretread
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3348425 - 11/11/04 09:08 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

I thought that him and his three ass cheeks were moving out of the country if Bush won?


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: nycomyco]
    #3348604 - 11/11/04 09:51 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

nycomyco said:
John Kerry and the democrats were the reason that John Kerry and the democrats lost the election.




If anything Michael Moore got younger people involved in the election. This is the guy that voted for Nader in 2000, he's hardly an ardent advocate of the DNP. Besides, his movie raises many interesting points - it is a documentary after all. Just because Michael adds his own satire to the documentary doesn't make it any less true.


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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3348656 - 11/11/04 10:03 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

I personally felt that Dennis Kucinech (how the hell do you spell that?) was the only democratic candidate that I would have supported... the rest of them are just very obviously corporate douches in my opinion :shrug:


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Krishna]
    #3348662 - 11/11/04 10:06 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

What about Al Sharpton? The Democrats are a mess. They are being assimilated by the Right wing. Where Conservatives rarely look for a moderate, the Left is always going slightly Right just to give voters what the want: Someone who has some Right wing in him.


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Invisibleretread
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Tao]
    #3348675 - 11/11/04 10:11 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
compassionate conservatism was an attempt to say "hey i don't want to pay welfare, but i still want to help people (including through medicare)". it was an attempt to be stingy yet generous. classic example of trying to be on both sides. all politicians do it, left and right, its what being a politician and winning votes is about.




I hate it when people are so stingy they want to keep their own money! I mean, come on, the gov't is allowed to steal, don't be stingy! It's not like you worked for your paycheck.... er...


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3348731 - 11/11/04 10:25 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Moore needs to get the fuck out of the Democratic party.

As popular as it was, Fahrenheit was his worst film. It was funny in some parts and it had showed some promise in the first hour, but then it fell apart. I hate when he tries to take himself seriously. Anyone who listens to him can tell he's just sadistic.

I hope he abandons this proposed sequel. He's running on fumes. He needs to get back to his independent roots.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Gijith]
    #3349055 - 11/11/04 11:36 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

I think Moore would help the Democraps more by making movies like Fahreheit 9/11 for the Repooplicans. Those not already agreeing with him actually seemed to think it made a worst impression on Kerry that he was connected with people like Moore

Dean would've been a much better candidate than Kerry from what I have seen of his speeches and enthusiasm, not from polls and republicans like other people base it on. Dean was strong, resilient and interesting, unlike Kerry who looked like he was always going to fall asleep on the spot he was so tired and boring


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Ravus]
    #3349162 - 11/11/04 11:53 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

From what I get, alot of people are pointing the finger at Jason Newsom, the San Fran mayor who started the gay marriage fiasco. There was a large republican turn out of people who voted for Bush based on "morality". Newsom may very well be the Ralph Nader of this past election.

F-9-11 was hardly about that issue, it focused on the War on Terror and Iraq invasion, and Americans voted Bush back into offince inspite of these issues.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3349196 - 11/11/04 11:58 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Or perhaps because of these issues. Those were the main things Bush had going for him, Kerry had the economy, jobs and being more intelligent than Bush going for him but Bush still won because Americans fear Arabs, to put it bluntly  :lol:


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3349411 - 11/12/04 12:36 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

zahudulallah said:
From what I get, alot of people are pointing the finger at Jason Newsom, the San Fran mayor who started the gay marriage fiasco. There was a large republican turn out of people who voted for Bush based on "morality". Newsom may very well be the Ralph Nader of this past election.

F-9-11 was hardly about that issue, it focused on the War on Terror and Iraq invasion, and Americans voted Bush back into offince inspite of these issues.




Well said.

Sadly, gays hurt the democrats by becoming an issue.

If, next election, there is a civil union vote, it will help the democrats.


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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3349555 - 11/12/04 01:18 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

...i think howard dean would have been better, if only he hadnt screamed like a maniac




There was more to it than that...


Why The Corporate
Media Killed Dean's Campaign
The Scream
By David Podvin
MakeThemAccountable.com
2-11-4


On December 1, 2003, Howard Dean was ahead by twenty points in the polls when he appeared on Hardball with Chris Matthews and said, "We're going to break up the giant media enterprises." This pronouncement went far beyond the governor's previous public musings about possibly re-regulating the communications industry, and amounted to a declaration of war on the corporations that administer the flow of information in the United States.

It was an extraordinarily noble and dangerous thing to do: when he advocated a truly free press, Dr. Dean was provoking the corrupt media conglomerates that control what most Americans see and hear and read, and thereby control what most Americans think.

The media giants quickly responded by crushing his high-flying campaign with the greatest of ease. This time, they didn't even have to invent a scandal in order to achieve the desired result; merely by chanting the word "unelectable" at maximum volume, the mainstream media maneuvered Democratic voters into switching their support to someone who poses no threat to the status quo.

John Kerry is a member in good standing of the feeble Daschle/Biden/Feinstein wing of the Democratic Party, a group of politicians whose disagreements with the mercantile elite tend to be merely rhetorical. Any doubts about Kerry's level of commitment to his stated progressive beliefs were conclusively answered in 1994 when he proclaimed himself "delighted" with the Republican takeover of Congress. The media oligarchy knows that a general election race between Kerry and George W. Bush will insure a continuation of its monopoly, regardless of who wins.

The news cartel had always been hostile to Dean; independent surveys revealed that he had received the most negative coverage of any candidate except Dennis Kucinich (the only other contender who strongly favors mandatory media divestment). But after his statement on Hardball, reporting about Dean abruptly came to an end and was replaced by supposition. The existing conjecture in political circles about his ability to win was transformed into a thunderous media mantra that drowned out all other issues

By mid-December, the news divisions of the four major television networks were reporting as fact that Dean was unelectable. The print media echoed the theme; on December 17, the Washington Post printed a front-page story that posited Dean could not win the presidency. The Post quickly followed up with an onslaught of articles and editorials reasserting that claim. Before the month was over, Dean's lack of electability had been highlighted in The New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Boston Globe, the Chicago Tribune, the Los Angeles Times, and every other major paper in the United States.

As 2004 began, Time and Newsweek simultaneously ran cover stories emphasizing that Dean was unelectable. In the weeks before the Iowa caucus, the ongoing topic of discussion on the political panel shows was that Dean was unelectable. National talk radio shows repeatedly stressed that Dean was unelectable. The corporate Internet declared that Dean was unelectable. And the mainstream media continued with the storyline that Dean was unelectable right up until Iowans attended their caucuses. Iowa Democrats could not watch a television or listen to a radio or read a newspaper or go online without learning that Howard Dean was unelectable.

It was the classic Big Lie. Through the power of repetition, the corporate media ? which has been wrong about who would win the popular vote in two of the last three presidential elections ? inculcated the public with the message that Dean could not win. Pollster John Zogby wrote, "Howard Dean was the man of the year, but that was 2003. In 2004, electability has become the issue and John Kerry has benefited."

The unexamined factor is how electability became "the issue". It had never before been the dominant consideration in Democratic primaries, because voters had focused on policy rather than crystal ball gazing. Electability was this campaign's version of "Al Gore claimed to have invented the Internet": it was a media contrivance that was used to manipulate voters.

On January 19, Democratic caucus goers in Iowa ? who were the initial intended audience for this propaganda disguised as reportage ? overwhelmingly repudiated Dean, telling pollsters they believed he was unelectable. Later that evening, Dean yelled encouragement to his supporters at a pep rally, an incident that provided the pretext for the coup de gr,ce.

During the week leading up to the New Hampshire primary, the media obsessed about Dean's "bizarre" rally incident, adding "un-presidential" and "emotionally unstable" to its descriptions of the governor. The unified message was that Dean had self-destructed. When he finished a distant second in New Hampshire, journalists and pundits hailed the defeat as confirmation of their premise that Dean had always been unelectable.

Yet there had been no tangible basis for that assertion. At the beginning of 2004, a poll conducted by Time magazine showed that Dean trailed Bush by only six points. That was a smaller deficit than Gore faced shortly before the general election in 2000, and he wound up getting the most popular votes. Undaunted by this evidence to the contrary, reporters adhered to the motif that Dean had absolutely no chance.

Matea Gold of the Los Angeles Times is one of the many deceitful corporate scribes who obediently supplemented the "Dean is unelectable" message with its companion lie, "Dean is emotionally unstable", although she was a little slow on the uptake. In a report she authored the night of the pep rally, Gold wrote, "We will not give up!" (Dean) declared, his gravelly voice barely audible over the din of applause inside the '70s-style disco hall. "We will not quit, now or ever! We want our country back!"

But twenty-four hours later, when it had become clear that the official corporate media version of events was to be Dean had gone berserk, Gold omitted all reference to the noise over which the Democrat had been shouting: "Dean leapt onto the stage, tore off his suit jacket and rolled up his sleeves. His face beet-red, he punched his fists in the air and spoke in a near-guttoral (sic) roar. The frenetic response to his poor showing struck many as inappropriate."

Gold's colleague at the Times, Ronald Brownstein, joined the chorus of supposedly objective journalists who expressed relief after witnessing Dean's apparent demise. Brownstein has written that it is "reassuring" to see Democrats abandon Dean. And to whom is it reassuring? It is reassuring to Brownstein's employers at the Tribune Company, which recently reported record earnings as a result of media deregulation implemented by Bush.

Howard Fineman, the author of the Newsweek attack on Dean, has now written an analysis of why Dean fell so far, so fast. One of the reasons Fineman cites is that Dean has been too "defiant". And whom has the former governor of Vermont been defying? When Dean advocated breaking up the media giants, he was defying Fineman's employers at the Washington Post Company, which recently reported record earnings as a result of media deregulation implemented by Bush.

Those Democrats who have been hoodwinked into believing Dean self-destructed by yelling at a pep rally should recall how the major media handled Bush's drunk-driving arrest that a small Maine newspaper revealed right before the 2000 election. It was an incident that on the surface seemed as though it should have been politically fatal ? the candidate who had based his campaign on the vow that "I will restore honor and dignity to the Oval Office" was proven to have lied about drunkenly driving off a road.

Demonstrably, it is never what a politician does that creates a scandal; it is always whether the television networks and major metropolitan newspapers respond to the incident with saturation coverage. When a presidential candidate who was committed to deregulating the corporate media got caught lying about breaking the law, the importance of the event was minimized. When a presidential candidate who was committed to breaking up the corporate media got caught shouting at a pep rally, the importance of the event was maximized.

The scream that had the greatest impact on the Democratic presidential campaign was not Dean's gonzo yell in Iowa, but the deafening roar of deceit that emanated from Corporate America's media subsidiaries. The downfall of the Democratic frontrunner was not self-induced; it was self-defense. Dean had threatened to mess with General Electric, Viacom, Disney, the New York Times Company, the Washington Post Company, et al., so they messed with him first.

Such corporate vigilance is inconsistent with the principles of American democracy, but welcome to the real world. In a dictatorship, the tiny minority of well-armed people maintains absolute power by intimidating the vast majority of unarmed people. In a democracy that is populated by citizens who get their information from a few greedy companies, the tiny minority of well-informed people maintains absolute power by manipulating the vast majority of misinformed people. When you control what people think, there is no need to point a gun at them.

In recent years, corporations have dramatically increased their power at the expense of the average citizen (and with the apathetic complicity of the average citizen). Big Business has evolved from merely being a vital part of society into being master of both the political system and the means of communication. As a result, the boundaries of the national debate are now defined by the interests of the Fortune 500, and the malefactors of great wealth have become increasingly brazen. Americans used to laugh at banana republics, where the ruling elites are so shamelessly debauched that judges go on duck hunting trips with the politicians whose cases they are scheduled to review, but it doesn't seem quite so funny anymore.

After the last presidential election, the corporate functionaries on the Supreme Court overrode the will of the people by empowering the man who had lost. It was an awkward procedure, so the process has been refined. In 2004, the mainstream media is rapidly disqualifying all the candidates who fail to honor the business agenda, thus eliminating the need for another controversial judicial intervention.

Howard Dean's campaign now lies in ruins because he chose to confront the multinational conglomerates that run this country. If Dean is so resilient that he fights his way back into contention, the Fourth Estate will be ready to batter him again. In the United States of America, people who pose a threat to the reigning corporate establishment are destroyed. Or, as the Soviets used to put it, emotionally unstable individuals who deviate from the party line are guilty of engaging in "self-destruction".

http://www.makethemaccountable.com/podvin/media/040201_TheScream.htm



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If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.


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Offlineoggleman
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Rose]
    #3349634 - 11/12/04 01:51 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

I'm not proposing dean for pres in 08, besides the dem pres campaign won't be getting underway for about 3 years, who knows what will change with him and/or other dems between now and then.

I'm just saying in the meantime, he needs to be the one that takes a stand against the right. He was very influential in the primaries and very succeful at setting the tone of the conventions. His attitude could be just what the doctor ordered for the ailing democratic party. He could end the dem belief that we need to keep giving in to the right to compete with them, which in reality just subverts our influence and makes them look good.

check out his site www.democracyforamerica.com


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: FrankieJustTrypt]
    #3349957 - 11/12/04 03:54 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

There was more to it than that...




Thats right Dean was politically assasinated by his own party


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #3349977 - 11/12/04 04:06 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

If Hillary decides to run, she will be the nominee... like it or not.


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Fiddlesticks.



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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Rose]
    #3350094 - 11/12/04 05:08 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

::shudder::


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Rose]
    #3351509 - 11/12/04 02:42 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

I really doubt the majority of democrats would support Hillary in the primaries. A lot of democrats I've spoken to seem to dislike her, not to mention the perhaps most damning fact that she's a women. She is also rather certain to lose to a republican if she was the candidate, especially if someone like McCain is the republican candidate for '08


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Ravus]
    #3351526 - 11/12/04 02:47 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Well, if Bush beat McKain, don't discount Hillary.


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Fiddlesticks.



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Rose]
    #3351568 - 11/12/04 02:58 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Well, if Bush beat McKain, don't discount Hillary.



Bush beat McCain because he could get away with it. Hopefully the Democrats have learned their lesson and will put up a more moderate candidate next election.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Ravus]
    #3351620 - 11/12/04 03:09 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

MCCAIN- feingold was an awful piece of legislation, i hope its not mccain in 2008.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Rose]
    #3352327 - 11/12/04 05:13 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
OK DS, since, obviously, you feel Bush is a moderate.

Name some things he has done that have NOT inflamed America's liberals.

Clinton went out of his way to appease Republicans.




He signed Ted Kennedy's education Bill, never vetoed any spending whatsoever,and passed McCain-Feingold.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: michael moore plans new fahrenheit 9/11 1/2 [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3352385 - 11/12/04 05:25 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

DS, you are missing my point.

Saying, "SPENDING SHITLOADS OF $$$ is catering to the Liberal agenda", twice in the same thread, is phooey... almost insulting.

In the last 30 years, the Republican presidents have SPENT the most. And, by spending, I mean buying things America can't afford.

The last Liberal President, Clinton, REDUCED the defecit. Like he said he would.

You can't just say Bush is catering to liberals because he spends... that is bullshit, and it shows how little you actually know about the Liberal agenda. That is a VERY petty example of Bush's Compassionate Conservatism.

Now, I like how you hung "No Child Left Behind" on Ted Kennedy. Nice. Bush wasn't calling it Kennedy's bill 2 weeks ago on the campaign trail.

And McKain/Feingold was not a liberal issue, it was a Bi-Partisan issue... lest you forget McKain (The guy who got screwed by negative ads was a Republican). Also, it didn't work, lest you forget The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. The same guys who, ironically, cost McKain the Republican presidentual nomination 5 years ago.

Try again.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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