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Offlinethashaman
Biophilosopher

Registered: 11/09/04
Posts: 161
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
SAM, a stab at the stomach acid question....
    #3345104 - 11/11/04 03:47 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Hey sam and others, I have a pretty good idea of what stomach acid does to psilocin and psilocybin. in the case of psilocin, there is a hydroxyl group coming off the benzene ring. Stomach acid has a very low PH, sometimes as low as two or three. This means lots of protons floating around. Whicn means taht the hydroxyl group -OH will stay protonated in the stomach since it is surrounded by a sea of protons. This molecule is highly non-polar in this form and passes through membranous structures easily. It will either be transported through the membrane here passively (NOT VERY LIKELY BECAUSE OF SIZE), or will be passed down into the small intestine. Here, the environment is more basic, and the hydroxyl group will become deprotonated giveing psilocin a full negative charge. This makes psilocin an enolate ion and very polar. It can now cross over into the blood stream via some polar transmembrane protien. It is very unlikely that the molecule simply diffuses through the membrane here because it cannot in its full and negative glorious charge span the non-polar membrane. "LIKE DISSOLVES LIKE". And besides its too big. If it does diffuse through the membrane however on its own, then its more likely that in the stomach is the sight of diffusion as the molecule is non-polar here.
It is liekly as well that in the stomach, psilocybin is converted to psilocin by dephosphorylation and protonation of the 5-terminus on the benzene ring. So it is likly that psilocybin can not be utilized at all by the seratonin and dopamine receptors in the brain, but must be in the form of psilocin. This is ok, since the body has a way of converting to psilocin. It would be interesting and I would think there would be a strong correlation between psilocybin content and time of peak activity. In otherwords, dephosphorylation takes time. I would be willing to put money on it, if the psilocybin/ psilocin ratio is high (high psilocybin content, low psilocin content) in a batch, the longer they take to start working but also the longer the trip. If the psilocybin/psilocin ratio is low (low psilocybin, high psilocin) then the trip takes effect faster, because the body doesnt have to dephosphorylate and protonate the molecule, but i bet it wears off faster. This is all speculative but based on real biochemistry!!! Its my major, I should be able to at least make a logical stab at it.


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InvisibleSam1912
journeyman

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 2,142
Loc: Cali
Re: SAM, a stab at the stomach acid question.... [Re: thashaman]
    #3345115 - 11/11/04 03:51 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Wrong forum.

Sam


--------------------
Protect your civil rights!  End drug prohibition.  And if you don't care about your civil rights, protect mine!

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Offlinediscman1
journeyman
Registered: 08/24/04
Posts: 962
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: SAM, a stab at the stomach acid question.... [Re: thashaman]
    #3345116 - 11/11/04 03:52 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sam1912 said:
Wrong forum.

Sam


hmmm......


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InvisibleSam1912
journeyman

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 2,142
Loc: Cali
Re: SAM, a stab at the stomach acid question.... [Re: Sam1912]
    #3345218 - 11/11/04 04:24 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Just messing with ya.  There has been numerous studies conducted on this subject.  The accepted studies indicate that the plasma level in the blood stream peaks at about 1.5 hours after consuming psilocybin mushrooms on an empty stomach.

Biochem is really cool.  But I think you are way way ahead of yourself on this one. 

1.  Hydrochloric acid in the stomach normally maintain 3.7-4.5 pH.  In a grumbling stomach, much lower.  That doesn't mean a lot of free protons.  H3O+ is the preferred form as free protons tend to lose energy rapid to molecular collisions and captured by H2O.  Of course, the overall concentration of H+ and H3O+ isn't important... What is important, as you said, is that there are available H+ in the water.

2.  Psilocyin is only moderately soluble in water and acids.  That with short time the dissolved chemicals stay in the stomach means, not much going on in the stomach itself.  That doesn't mean we know how much is there since the research on this issue is not that extensive.

3.  There is an enzyme that chops the phosphate off.  It's in the small intestine and it's in the kidney and liver.  I can't remember what it's called, though.  Psilocin has high solubility in water and acids.  As it disolves, it is transferred into blood stream as plasma.  I would think the chemical is too large and require the assistance of proteins.  But epithelial cells might be able to handle them.  I'll check on it for you some time this year.  I think polarity is not the right word to use, because these molecules have a charge to them, thus the word plasma.  Just to add that in there since you mention polarity so much.

4.  The benzene ring should not be assumed to be broken IMO.  That specific structure including benzene is what scientists think is compatible with 5HT-2 receptors.  Any time benzene portion loses the structure, the whole molecule should be considered inactivated.

5.  Just to add... the concentration of metabolites peak soon after psilocin...  So, you could be right on psilocin not acting directly on the brain.. who knows...  care to donate a brain?

Anyways...  Good looking out.  Let us know what you think each semester.  I think it'll be interesting to see your knowledge on this grow and bring ours up as well. :wink:

Sam


--------------------
Protect your civil rights!  End drug prohibition.  And if you don't care about your civil rights, protect mine!

If you want a rating from me, please PM me.  For those really newbies, don't expect an answer back, but you can try me anyways.


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Offlinescatmanrav
Brainy Smurf

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: SAM, a stab at the stomach acid question.... [Re: Sam1912]
    #3345369 - 11/11/04 05:17 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Oops I posted in the other thread about it..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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