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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Why Ottawa must curry US favour now
    #3343504 - 11/10/04 09:50 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)



--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Re: Why Ottawa must curry US favour now [Re: carbonhoots]
    #3343523 - 11/10/04 09:55 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I wish i could go around the world telling people who they should and shouldn't elect and how they should run thier country...but im an American and im above that. We respect any country with an elected leader and we are always willing to try to work with leaders who have the best interest of thier people in mind.


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Why Ottawa must curry US favour now [Re: Catalysis]
    #3343626 - 11/10/04 10:19 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)



--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Offlinekadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
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Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 7,048
Loc: Asia
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Re: Why Ottawa must curry US favour now [Re: carbonhoots]
    #3343639 - 11/10/04 10:22 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Brian Mulrony should be fuckign shot. along with stockwell and harper.

I liek this
Quote:

Canadians are stuck with the re-election of George W. That's reality. But it's also reality that we're a separate country.





can someone tell the conservatives this?


--------------------
The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
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Re: Why Ottawa must curry US favour now [Re: carbonhoots]
    #3343821 - 11/10/04 11:07 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Well both those incidents allegadly occurred before i was even born.

However, according to the Toronto Star , Canada is one of the top ten suppliers of military arms in the world. In 2001, supplying over 1.5 billion dollars in arms to countries such as China, Colombia, Indonesia, the Philippines, Guatemala and Turkey. Whats that I smell? I think your shit stinks lol.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
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Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 953
Re: Why Ottawa must curry US favour now [Re: Catalysis]
    #3345693 - 11/11/04 09:16 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)


The sensational 1971 leak of confidential Pentagon documents sheds light on Canada's position on, and activities in, Vietnam. A McGill University professor has obtained portions of the Pentagon Papers that he says prove Canada's complicity in the war. On CBC Radio's Sunday Magazine, Senator Paul Martin and two university professors weigh in on the matter.

? The Pentagon Papers were based on a secret study of U.S. decision-making about Vietnam since the end of World War II. The study, led by U.S. Secretary of Defence Robert McNamara, was completed in 1969.
? The study was leaked to the press by Daniel Ellsberg in June 1971. Ellsberg was an employee of the Rand Corporation, a company that did considerable work for the American military. Ellsberg, an ex-marine, worked as the special assistant to assistant Secretary of Defence for International Security Affairs from 1964-67.

? Sam Noumoff, a McGill University professor, went to Los Angeles and petitioned a judge to release the Canadian aspects of the Pentagon Papers.
? The other interviewees in this clip are Paul Martin Sr., who was secretary of state for external affairs from 1963 to 1968, and Carleton University professor David Van Praagh, a specialist on Canadian foreign policy in the 1960s.

? The sections of the Pentagon Papers that were applicable to Canada were published in the Globe and Mail in July 1973.
? One of the events revealed by the Pentagon Papers is a secret meeting in May 1964 between President Lyndon Johnson and Prime Minister Lester Pearson in which they discussed the possibility of bombing North Vietnam. The telegram exposed by the Pentagon Papers referred to their cryptic discussion of "carrots and sticks," and the "nature of sticks."

? Many considered the release of the Pentagon Papers a courageous move on the part of the New York Times and the Washington Post. Shortly after the leak some were predicting the information exposed would hasten the end of the war.


http://archives.cbc.ca/400d.asp?id=1-71-1413-9127&wm6=1


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
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Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 953
Re: Why Ottawa must curry US favour now [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3345697 - 11/11/04 09:18 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)


http://projects.sipri.se/armstrade/Trnd_Ind_IRQ_Imps_73-02.pdf

Top three suppliers of arms to Saddam Hussein, 1973 - 2002

USSR: 57%
* France: 13%
* China: 12%

Then, in order of importance:

* Czechoslovakia: 7%
* Poland: 4%
* Brazil: 2%
* Egypt: 1%
* Romania: 1%
* Denmark: 1%
* Libya: 1%

USA's sales -- 1 percent. None provided before or after the Iraq-Iran war.


Syria hiding Iraq WMDs
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36463


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Offlinezahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: Why Ottawa must curry US favour now [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3345709 - 11/11/04 09:25 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

You can criticize Canada all you want, Canada still wont give a shit because it's Canada, after all.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
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Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 953
Re: Why Ottawa must curry US favour now [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3345713 - 11/11/04 09:28 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Wow! This is amazing and it really shows the hypocracy of all the America bashing Canadians.



Arms trade: Our dirty secret
'The public would be shocked if they knew'
Military industry brings in cash despite myths

LYNDA HURST
FEATURE WRITER

One of the most treasured of Canadians' beliefs is that theirs is a pacifist nation whose role is of peacekeeper, not warmonger.

When circumstances - Kosovo, Afghanistan, the looming war in Iraq - dictate, Canada will play its part. But its preference is to preserve the peace after the smoke clears.

Or so the government maintains and most Canadians willingly accept.

But is it a self-deluding myth? Do we espouse peace while reaping the benefits of conflict?

Consider: In 2001, Canada exported $592-million worth of military goods to the rest of the world, with firearm sales alone jumping to $26 million from $3.5 million the year before.

The number doesn't include military exports to Canada's biggest foreign customer by far, the United States.

That figure is not tabulated by Ottawa, but analysts estimate it at 65 per cent of total sales, or at least $1.5 billion a year, probably more.

even with that excluded, Canada was in the lower half of the world's top 10 military suppliers in 2001, albeit nowhere near the biggest, multi-billion-dollar suppliers, the U.S. and Russia.

"The public would be shocked if they knew how significantly Canada is involved in the international arms trade," says Ken Epps of Project Ploughshares, the peace research centre.

"But most people are unaware of it."

Making money out of arms while touting a peacekeeper stance means Canada "is playing both sides of the fence," he says. "There is a real contradiction."

In 2001, total arms deliveries in the world amounted to $21 billion (U.S.), with two-thirds going to developing nations, many driven by internal strife or government oppression. Several were Canada's customers. That appalls anti-arms activists.

"It is morally reprehensible to supply military equipment to governments which violate human rights," says Richard Sanders, co-ordinator of the Coalition to Oppose the Arms Trade.

Canada's participation in the munitions trade may be no secret, he adds, but it comes under little public scrutiny.

"It's a big industry with a low profile because Ottawa knows Canadians like the image of peacemaker."

The Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade has published an annual report on military exports since 1990, but with the American market left out, the biggest piece of the picture is missing. The report is tabled in Parliament with little discussion or fanfare. As a result, say critics, the government's consistent but misleading claim the country accounts for only 1 per cent of world arms sales goes

unchallenged.

Moreover, the reports often contain disturbing discrepancies and omissions, says Sanders: "They cover up more than they reveal."

He cites, as an example, Industry Canada's database, which states Canadian firms have military "export experience" to many countries never listed in any department report; among them, Congo, el Salvador and Iran.

The recently released accounting for 2001 lists exports to 66 countries in all and states firmly that firearms sales were restricted to the 15 members of the international Automatic Firearms Country Control List. Yet, small arms are reported as having been sold to several non-members, including Guatemala, Turkey, Argentina and Zimbabwe, all of which have been accused of abuses by human-rights groups.

It's not the report's only discrepancy. On one list, China is reported to have bought $242,000 in exports, but on a second list detailing what exactly was sold, the reported figure is only $70,000.

While the defence industry counters that Canada's military exports are overwhelmingly support-role in nature, not directly offensive, it's a distinction without a difference to Sanders: "Troops have to be transported to battlefields.

Bombs are guided by computers. All industry equipment is part of a system that ultimately kills people."

In any given year, there are about 650 companies involved in the defence industry, employing some 65,000 workers. Most Canadian firms specialize in high-tech components and computerized

subsystems, in radar, communications, surveillance and monitoring. But others make and export armoured vehicles and assault rifles.

Two of the biggest firms, General Motors Defense Canada and General Dynamics Canada, are subsidiaries of mammoth parent companies in the U.S. The largest purely Canadian contractor is Montreal's Bombardier Inc., which supplies aircraft and

pilot training to NATO and other major nations.

In overseeing the defence industry, the foreign affairs department is in a contradictory position, critics say, both controlling foreign sales and promoting them.

Ottawa requires contractors to get permits for all specific military goods and technology and for dual-use materials that could be militarized. But it also sponsors regular industry trade missions to targeted customers (the next is to Japan) and funds exhibition booths at arms fairs around the world.

In addition to Foreign Affairs, the Canadian Commercial Corp., which reports to Industry Canada, keeps defence contractors posted on upcoming munitions markets, and often acts as the seller or guarantor on foreign military deals. The corporation is

currently offering advice on how to bid for a piece of the largest procurement contract in history, Washington's $200 billion (U.S.) Joint Strike Fighter program, which will develop the next generation of high-tech combat aircraft.

But the public will never know how much of a piece Canadian firms end up winning because the data won't be reported. The reason for that is simple, not sinister, according to Foreign Affairs spokesperson Pierre Bechard. Canada and the U.S. have had a shared defence production agreement since World War II, which doesn't require export permits between the two.

"Therefore there is no mechanism to capture the statistics," he says.

"They could do it if they wanted to," argues Ken Epps, "simply by requiring the companies to report sales to them."

The reports never reveal "commercially sensitive details" (in other words, the names of contractors), an omission Project Ploughshares tries to remedy by digging through

annual reports. In 2001, for the fifth year in a row, General Motors Defense Canada in London, Ont., held top spot. Epps estimates the top four companies exceeded $2.2 billion in overall sales. But that is business. What alarms activists more is how

the government often appears to contravene its own humanitarian guidelines in exporting to the Third World.

Department policy states that exports are subject to "close controls to ensure they are consistent with Canadian values and are not diverted to ends that would ... have a destabilizing effect on both regional security and global order."

More precisely, that means strict export controls are applied to countries "involved in or under imminent threat of hostilities" or those with a "persistent record" of serious human-rights violations.

Why then, critics ask, were exports of military components and/or firearms approved in 2001 for Colombia, Indonesia, the Philippines, Guatemala and Turkey - all of them in one or both of those situations?

The department says "extensive consultations" are held whenever there are concerns about a customer country and, according to Bechard, all military exports in 2001 were "evaluated against, and deemed to be compatible with, our criteria."

Epps counters that those discussions are, in fact, infrequent and held behind closed doors. The Area Control List, effectively the "banned" list, has for years contained only Angola, which is shortly to be removed from it, and Myanmar (Burma). The list should be "much more reflective of what's going on in the real world. Assessments should be done in collaboration with monitoring agencies, and the decisions not be made subject to economic pressures."

Problem is, foreign affairs and international trade are governed by the same department: "One side is stressing human rights and security, the other wants to expand global trade, and thinks this industry should be expanded. People go in opposite directions. They're at loggerheads."

And the upshot is a military-export control system that is humanitarian on paper, but flawed in application, says Epps.

"Ottawa has to recognize that these exports are unlike any other. They are unique and require unique controls."

Some think that's exactly what Canada has. A report last year by the U.S. Centre for International Trade and Security praised it for developing the "most comprehensive system of controlled-goods registration in the world," calling it "among the best in terms of transparency."

The report lauds former foreign affairs minister Lloyd Axworthy for initiating stronger controls after the Gulf War and for attempting more rigorous checks of internal conflicts and human-rights abuses among potential customers. But mainly it credits Washington. Its 1999 decision to drop a special exemption that allowed Canadian companies to import U.S. military goods and technology without permits led to tighter controls, the centre claims.

Among other issues at that time, the U.S. was concerned about the Canadian transfer of classified technology to China and claimed many exports were winding up in unacceptable "end-user" countries, including Iran. Ottawa vehemently denied the charges.

Today, however, any Canadian military product containing more than 5 per cent American technology - night-vision goggles, for example, with an American chip - must apply for U.S. export approval, as well as a Canadian permit.

That means Canada's defence contractors are among the most controlled in the world, says Norbert Cyr, spokesperson for the Canadian Defence Industries Association (CDIA).

Cyr is also communications vice-president of Oerlikon Contraves in Montreal, which makes air-defence short-range missile systems and communications systems. His company, he says, has had visits from foreign affairs officials "to check on defence material that could be used against civilians."

Canada requires end-user certificates from receiving countries and, if the product is to be sold on, a certificate from the final recipient. Not that this is always possible.

"There's not much we can do," he says, "if we sold machine guns, say, to Mexico 20 years ago and Mexico later sold them on to Colombia."

Cyr has no idea why, in 2001, Canada permitted exports to several countries named by Amnesty International and other abuse-monitoring agencies as human-rights violators: "I can't answer why anything was sold to a place like Zimbabwe," he says. "That's not our job."

CDIA releases an industry-wide revenue report only every two years and hasn't yet completed 2001.

When it does, it will show several huge contracts Cyr says will have follow-on business for years. Among them:

# Calgary's Computing Devices of Canada, which beat two giant international defence contractors to supply the British army with 48,000 digital radios and 30,000 computers over three years, a $4-billion contract.

# General Motors Defense Canada - bought for $1.1 billion (U.S.) in December by General Dynamics Inc. - which was awarded a six-year, $4-billion contract to make Stryker light-armoured vehicles for the U.S. military. Assembly line workers are on

overtime because, it's speculated, the Strykers will be needed in Iraq.

"It's either feast or famine with military contracts," says Cyr, "therefore, many firms now do commercial work as well." And because international arms suppliers are highly competitive, dominated by defence giants and vulnerable to takeovers, "there are many more partnerships happening in the Canadian industry. Companies are teaming up."

With the world geared up for what's likely to be years on end of terrorism-ignited conflict, the outlook for the industry is undeniably strong. Good news for business, but a red flag to Canadian peace activists who condemn the hypocrisy.

No country is fully open on the arms trade, but few, they say, declare their humanitarian ideals as loudly as Canada.

"And it's a myth," says Richard Sanders, "a dangerous myth."

Additional articles by Lynda Hurst


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Content...d=1045047784313


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Offlinezahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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Re: Why Ottawa must curry US favour now [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3345769 - 11/11/04 10:09 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Honestly, quit spamming PAL with your useless fucking links and articles.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Why Ottawa must curry US favour now [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3345857 - 11/11/04 10:57 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

He has just as much right as the dipshits who post "BUSH KNEW" links.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleSteinM
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Registered: 07/03/03
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Re: Why Ottawa must curry US favour now [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3345866 - 11/11/04 11:00 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

And don't forget election conspiracy links and any link to john kerrys plan.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: Why Ottawa must curry US favour now [Re: Catalysis]
    #3345867 - 11/11/04 11:00 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Catalysis said:
I wish i could go around the world telling people who they should and shouldn't elect and how they should run thier country...but im an American and im above that. We respect any country with an elected leader and we are always willing to try to work with leaders who have the best interest of thier people in mind.




except all those popular socialist governments we deposed in South America. Oh yeah, and also the popularly supported oligarchies we are in the process of destroying in the middle east.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Why Ottawa must curry US favour now [Re: Stein]
    #3345886 - 11/11/04 11:06 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

And don't forget election conspiracy links and any link to john kerrys plan




Kerry had a plan?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
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Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 953
Re: Why Ottawa must curry US favour now [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3347617 - 11/11/04 05:55 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)



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