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 FrankieJustTrypt
and fell
Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 537
Loc: MI
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
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 Re: Honoring Veterans? No one died for me!  [Re: Swami]
#3335275 - 11/08/04 10:40 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'd hold the people, that died fighting in the revolutionary war, in the highest honor, if their kids, grandkids, and so-forth up to this point didn't squander all that was gained.
Other than that I really don't have much caring for people that died furthering the oligarchy's agenda. As in basically all wars since then.
I would be the first to pick up a fire arm in the actual occasion of an invasion. But so far the only things close to that were Pearl harbor and 9/11... Both farces.
My reply to the "My country, right or wrong" crowd:
Go join a club or a sports team... At least that may be productive.
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If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.
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 OJK
Stranger
Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 10,629
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Re: Honoring Veterans? No one died for me! [Re: stonedfish]
#3336487 - 11/09/04 09:00 AM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
stonedfish said:
The 1930s-era German soldier would have fought just as passionately against a country that wrogly and maliciously invaded Germany as he would have fought a country that was wrongly and maliciously invaded by Germany.
So your argument is that, if you forgive me paraphrasing, "A soldier in Nazi Germany shouldn't be blamed for killing Jewish people because, if another country had invaded Germany, that same soldier would have defended Germany"? Is that about right?
The problem with that argument is that it's stupid. You want to honour soldiers for things they might potentially have done? In other words, "A soldier in Vietnam who killed civilians should be honoured because if he hadn't been ordered to Vietnam, and another country had invaded America, he would have fought to defend America?"
People should be judged on their actions, not what they might have done had circumstances been different. I despise the argument "they are just following orders" as a justification of soldiers doing immoral things. Unless people are threatened with death, or another incredibly harsh penalty, if they disobey, they are responsible for their own actions. I don't care if soldiers might get a dishonourable discharge or a court marshal or even prison time for disobeying orders; they enlisted volountarily, they have the choice, they are not exonerated of responsibility.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Honoring Veterans? No one died for me! [Re: Swami]
#3336821 - 11/09/04 10:48 AM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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I neither support nor oppose the troops as a whole because they are individuals, with different motives and intentions. I have some friends in the army, so naturally I support them, but there are also some bloodthirsty soldiers out there who kill for fun.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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I'd hold the people, that died fighting in the revolutionary war...
So you support insurgency.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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FrankieJustTrypt
and fell
Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 537
Loc: MI
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
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Re: Honoring Veterans? No one died for me! [Re: Swami]
#3338808 - 11/09/04 07:26 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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So you support insurgency.
Yes I do.
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If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Honoring Veterans? No one died for me! [Re: Swami]
#3339128 - 11/09/04 09:01 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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It doesn't make much sense to me that people support the troops even if they do not support the cause. Do you also support the enemy troops even if you don't support the cause? Did you support the Nazis who were drafted, and felt that the Nazi veterans should be honored just as the American veterans were?
It's all in the winners. The winning veterans are slapped on the back, told they did a brave, heroic job, and then honored. The losing veterans, who often gave just as much or more, as they were fighting a downhill battle at the end if they lost, are ridiculed, charged with crimes, hated.
I'll support the troops if I support the cause. I'll support a militia that fights against a tyrannical American government when it comes to that. If the cause is completely against my beliefs, why should I support the tool that they use to go through with it? I don't support the knife that a killer holds, supporting hired killers who fight for reasons that I do not believe in is ridiculous.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Honoring Veterans? No one died for me! [Re: Ravus]
#3339146 - 11/09/04 09:06 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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You should honor the troops because they signed up for the cause they believe in, serving the people of the country you are a part of. If you believe in democracy, soldiers are just an extension of democracy. If the politicans the people elect create causes that you do not support, this does not reflect on the troops. The troops merely serve the will of the people by serving the will of their representatives, no more and no less.
Quote:
It doesn't make much sense to me that people support the troops even if they do not support the cause. Do you also support the enemy troops even if you don't support the cause? Did you support the Nazis who were drafted, and felt that the Nazi veterans should be honored just as the American veterans were?
It makes a difference when soldiers try to ensure democracy while others are trying to conquer. All have ulterior motives, but on the outside the belligerent leaders have a belligerent army to go with it, who care nothing for the will of the people or mercy
Quote:
I'll support the troops if I support the cause. I'll support a militia that fights against a tyrannical American government when it comes to that. If the cause is completely against my beliefs, why should I support the tool that they use to go through with it? I don't support the knife that a killer holds, supporting hired killers who fight for reasons that I do not believe in is ridiculous.
It's not ridiculous when it's the will of the people, no matter if a few individuals among the whole disagree
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Honoring Veterans? No one died for me! [Re: Ravus]
#3339170 - 11/09/04 09:13 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
You should honor the troops because they signed up for the cause they believe in, serving the people of the country you are a part of. If you believe in democracy, soldiers are just an extension of democracy. If the politicans the people elect create causes that you do not support, this does not reflect on the troops. The troops merely serve the will of the people by serving the will of their representatives, no more and no less.
But the troops DON'T always serve the will of the people. The majority of people are for medicinal marijuana, yet the DEA still arrests them in the War on Drugs. Are the DEA our troops too? Should we support them?
The will of the representatives is personal, rarely the will of the people. The people usually just choose the lesser of two evils after all
Quote:
It makes a difference when soldiers try to ensure democracy while others are trying to conquer. All have ulterior motives, but on the outside the belligerent leaders have a belligerent army to go with it, who care nothing for the will of the people or mercy
That is just what one side says about the other. It is always justified from one point of view, and the other is villified. You say this only because the winners write the history books, but it is all bias.
Quote:
It's not ridiculous when it's the will of the people, no matter if a few individuals among the whole disagree
Again, the will of the representatives is personal and bias, it is not the will of the people. Remember Bush's comment on Saddam?
"After all, this is the guy who tried to kill my dad."
No bias in that, eh?
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Honoring Veterans? No one died for me! [Re: Ravus]
#3339177 - 11/09/04 09:15 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yes, but in a republic the representatives represent the people. The people vote them into office, so what they do is then the will of the majority of the people. Bush's re-election shows that the War on Iraq, while unpopular, was the will of the people, and therefore the troops should be supported as helping give us, the people, a voice. The troops should be supported, not viewed as "hired killers," as you call them
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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