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 silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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 Re: I've noticed something.  [Re: zahudulallah]
#3341030 - 11/10/04 10:49 AM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Not all liberals are elitists and neither are all conservatives, but there's plenty of elitism on all sides(including libertarians, I must admit).
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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 zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic
Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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Re: I've noticed something. [Re: silversoul7]
#3341038 - 11/10/04 10:50 AM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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I agree. It's the unfortunate result of ego and politics.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: I've noticed something. [Re: zahudulallah]
#3341042 - 11/10/04 10:51 AM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's plainly naive to label liberals as elitists.
no it's not, and just because some comedian says it is doesn't make it so. Actions speak louder than words, the actions after this last election showed Kerry telling the south to kiss his ass.
Quote:
Right wing conservatives are far more notorious for elitism via Jesus than any apparently elite liberal "who has what he wants" and invests his energy in interests for the sake of doing so. C'mon...
I disagree, there apparantly of elitist Liberals from the Hollywood left (EXTREME ELITISTS) to the Elitists from the East coast (KENNEDY, KERRY, ETC,). I'm not saying that there are none on the right but that's what's good about my position, I think your side and the right side suck. You have your Faux-Christians who claim damnation on the left and you have those from the left discounting a majority because they ether never went to Harvard or live south of the Mason Dixie line. I'm a Northerner so I'm on the outside looking in and what I saw was a huge kiss my ass from the left.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic
Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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Re: I've noticed something. [Re: Innvertigo]
#3341069 - 11/10/04 10:58 AM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Jesusland extends all the way to the actual Canadian border.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: I've noticed something. [Re: zahudulallah]
#3341083 - 11/10/04 11:02 AM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jesusland extends all the way to the actual Canadian border.
so all voters from "jesusland" voted they way they did only because they were christian and definatly NOT the fact that Kerry was a dousche?
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic
Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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Re: I've noticed something. [Re: Innvertigo]
#3341100 - 11/10/04 11:07 AM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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The number one reason the massive turnout went for Bush was over conservative values. These values are derived from Christianity. Jesusland it is.
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OJK
Stranger
Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 10,629
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Re: I've noticed something. [Re: Innvertigo]
#3341105 - 11/10/04 11:07 AM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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sigh, I know what tollerance means. The liberals neither respect nor recognize these Southerners point of view (perhaps the latter but definatly NOT the former). How many times have you seen people on this site mention how stupid those from the south are and dismiss what they say because they are ignorant rednecks? Isn't that quite similar to saying: "who gives a fuck what blacks think, they're just niggers?"
I entirely agree that dismissing the opinions of a section of people out of hand due to their place of residence or origin is ignorant and abhorent.
However, there are certain views which are more commonly held among certain areas of the South that I do not respect. Basicly, there are certain policies that I believe should never be followed, even if they are supported by the majority of the electorate; views that violate the basic principles of democracy or fundemental human rights.
we'll have to agree to disagree on this one since I don't think there is ever a justified reason to kill a president. This is a pretty eye-opening statement and just enforces this impression of selective tolerance.
I wasn't saying that I would shoot Bush given the chance, just that it could potentially be a justified action.
Given a hypothetical situation; for example, if Bush decided that homosexuality should be illegal and punishible by death, and hypotheticly killing him would prevent this legislation being enforced, would it be justified to kill him then?
Now, this is of course a fantasy, and killing Bush would almost certainly never result in a specific policy change, but I think it demonstrates the principle of tolerance not being absolut.
illiberal? You're advocating being illiberal? That sounds like selective freedoms and rights which is a pretty narrowminded approach. That just happens to be the meaning of illiberal.
il?lib?er?al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-lbr-l)
adj.
Narrow-minded; bigoted.
Archaic. Ungenerous, mean, or stingy.
Archaic.
Lacking liberal culture.
Ill-bred; vulgar
I rather meant "illiberal" in the sense of; 1. Not liberal. And yes, I believe in "selective freedoms"; I believe that those who would undermine or destroy the rights of others should be limited in their freedom and prevented from doing so.
Personally I think this is the reason the liberals lost. They are selective on who gets to benefit from this great nation. They excuse the south because they feel they are knuckle draging rednecks who don't understand how things work. This angered the majority of states giving Bush the victory. The liberals on this site and in general have an image problem. They like to mention how open-minded they and how racist the right are at the same time denouncing people has ignorant rednecks. I guess I don't get it. How can you people not see this as being narrowminded and wrong.
I am saddened that some people base their vote on being angered by the "image" of the left.
Personally, I am reluctant to describe either American mainstream party as "liberal" at all.
My point is simply that it is not being narrow-minded to say "even if the majority of people in the South oppose gay marriage, they should not be able to vote for a party that would legislate against is because gay marriage is an interaction between two consenting adults with no significant consequences for other, so government, even democratic government, should not be able to interfere in it".
In the this way, liberalism must have limits, and one of these limits is limiting the power of democracy to restrict basic freedoms.
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HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 10,028
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
Last seen: 1 month, 29 days
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Re: I've noticed something. [Re: silversoul7]
#3341111 - 11/10/04 11:09 AM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thanks for the recommendation, I'll try to check it out.
I am using these terms pretty loosely though and it's probably not accurately conveying my meaning. As you know I favor personal freedom rather than some legislated edict. In that sense, many of the things I believe in are considered liberal.
Mainly who I am talking about are the far left wacko's who accept conspiracy theories as religion and who seem to many times speak for their side the loudest. One's who would have us revert to living in the stone age again and think that socialism is a great idea.
As we've discussed many times before the leadership on both sides is undoubtedly working to further their own agendas. Agendas which often coincide. I'm more (though not exclusively) referring to those who aren't in positions of power.
I have a difficult time believing Ahron_Zombie. If I recall he's pretty young. Claiming to be Republican while you were still in high school - most likely at the behest of his parents - doesn't really qualify you in my book. Without some real world experience your simply following others.
Wesley Clark was nothing more than a political oppourtunist. You need to do nothing more than read a few of his quotes before and after his switch to conclude this was an overnight rebirth.
I'm not saying their aren't conservatives who adopt more liberal policies, but your experience shows it far more prevalent to migrate the other way. Many of the posters here myself included have admitted they once believed the other way. The ones who do adopt the more liberal ideas are simply realizing the only logical choice is to allow people to do what they want as long as no one else is hurt.
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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Re: I've noticed something. [Re: Innvertigo]
#3341429 - 11/10/04 12:13 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Kerry did not defeat Bush because not being Bush is not a good enough reason to change horses in midstream. Democrats have an image problem and they are compounding it with their name calling and trashing of those whose votes they want in the next election.
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: I've noticed something. [Re: Innvertigo]
#3341579 - 11/10/04 12:58 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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The liberals neither respect nor recognize these Southerners point
of view (perhaps the latter but definatly NOT the former). How many
times have you seen people on this site mention how stupid those
from the south are and dismiss what they say because they are
ignorant rednecks? Isn't that quite similar to saying: "who gives a
fuck what blacks think, they're just niggers?"
The #1 rule of extreme liberalism - it is necessary to criticize the
majority and it is necessary to exalt the minority.
For example, it is ok to be racist towards small town white people,
but not big city black people.
Edited by RandalFlagg (11/10/04 01:02 PM)
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: I've noticed something. [Re: OJK]
#3341783 - 11/10/04 01:29 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
However, there are certain views which are more commonly held among certain areas of the South that I do not respect.
the only thing you have to respect from those people is the respect of letting them speak their minds. You can disagree as much as you like, that's fine.
Quote:
Basicly, there are certain policies that I believe should never be followed, even if they are supported by the majority of the electorate; views that violate the basic principles of democracy or fundemental human rights.
I agree, if it violates the individual rights then it should be opposed, however for better or for worse those red states believe differently about what is an individual violation. This can also be used against the Elite Leftists who punish those who are in the wagon opposed to those taking up space. ie: socialism.
Quote:
I wasn't saying that I would shoot Bush given the chance, just that it could potentially be a justified action.
I didn't mean imply that you yourself were going to shoot anyone.
Quote:
Given a hypothetical situation; for example, if Bush decided that homosexuality should be illegal and punishible by death,
Hypotheticals cannot be argued against since they have never happened, I tend not to argue against them. With that said I doubt that would ever be an issue.
Quote:
Now, this is of course a fantasy, and killing Bush would almost certainly never result in a specific policy change, but I think it demonstrates the principle of tolerance not being absolut.
only if that hypothetical situation happened in a hypothetical world. I understand where you're coming from but "what if's and imigaine if's" mean nothing since he hasn't even approached that being hypothetically accused.
Quote:
I rather meant "illiberal" in the sense of; 1. Not liberal. And yes, I believe in "selective freedoms"; I believe that those who would undermine or destroy the rights of others should be limited in their freedom and prevented from doing so.
so then would allow a Socialist or Communist candidate to run for president if given the chance? If you say no then you are in fact violating that persons freedom of speach.
Quote:
I am saddened that some people base their vote on being angered by the "image" of the left.
why? Can't you blame those that do? If I were a southerner i'd be very pissed at the image the left is portraying.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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retread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
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Re: I've noticed something. [Re: silversoul7]
#3341938 - 11/10/04 01:57 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'd just like to clarify that I and retreader are not the same person. I'm sure that we'll all get a great kick out of watching him. I hope that KOTT doesn't accidentlly log in under that one and post as himself! take care 
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Tao
Village Genius
Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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Re: I've noticed something. [Re: retread]
#3341962 - 11/10/04 02:02 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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thanks for pointing that out, he was about to give you a bad reputation...
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Magash's Grain Tek + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs 
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oggleman
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 281
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
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Re: I've noticed something. [Re: Tao]
#3341998 - 11/10/04 02:11 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: I've noticed something. [Re: retread]
#3342022 - 11/10/04 02:15 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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suuuuuuuuuuuuuuure... 
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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RainbowDrops
Technicolormindsets &prismed sweatbeads
Registered: 09/14/04
Posts: 137
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
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Re: I've noticed something. [Re: retreader]
#3342090 - 11/10/04 02:26 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
retreader said:
Anyone who voted for Bush is necessarily a retarded fag though.
Oh that helps us left wingers...
You sure sound intelligent. 
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mmmm, spacecake
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Tao
Village Genius
Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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Re: I've noticed something. [Re: RainbowDrops]
#3342114 - 11/10/04 02:32 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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its a puppet to make fun of retread newbie
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Magash's Grain Tek + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: I've noticed something. [Re: RainbowDrops]
#3342130 - 11/10/04 02:36 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Oh that helps us left wingers...
You sure sound intelligent.
you have to weed through the trash sometimes....welcome newbie
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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RainbowDrops
Technicolormindsets &prismed sweatbeads
Registered: 09/14/04
Posts: 137
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
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I too have noticed that there are indeed some liberals that claim to have this grand tolerance of others, yet bash southerners. It's bullshit, really. I do not consider these people TRUE liberals for they have been blindsighted by misconception.
I am a left winger & I really don't like how the Republican party used the word 'liberal' as an insult for like every other campaign. It's not bad, just a thing. To be conservative isn't awful, just a personal choice...fine. But honestly the definition:
Main Entry: 2liberal
Function: noun
: a person who is liberal: as a : one who is open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways b capitalized : a member or supporter of a liberal political party c : an advocate or adherent of liberalism especially in individual rights
Not so bad, eh?
Now those who are NOT open-minded do NOT fit into this category. So are those REALLY liberals we are talking about or people that masquerade as liberals?
Personally, I believe people in office should focus more on keeping America what it was meant to be...free. Restrictions aren't going to accomplish that. When you refuse everything, nothing progresses. That is why Bush should NOT push that fact as he does so very often that he is a Christian & that this is just the way he thinks...etc. People need to live their OWN lives. With things like the Patriot Act & abortion laws, restiction is being pushed upon us...putting bars on what was supposed to be the land of the 'free'. Pretty soon bar codes will be on our fourheads.
Earlier today I heard a boy of about 17 just hear the word war & his response was "awesome". A discussion about making lamp shades out of Jewish skin is cool, eh? Is that what people are raising these days? He literally lit up when he heard of it.
Hate in general is an awful thing (especially with a thing like love at its mirror) but it exists. EVERYONE hates...it's an emotion. If you are human you hate, as do you love. You need one for the other...it's not in decline. I just think we need to fix the drones that are living blinded with it...& it's not liberals, s'not conservatives...people.
...so stop arguing bee-yotches!!
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mmmm, spacecake
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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I am an elitist, Atheist, fiscal conservative, very hawkish on security, and wish that I could have voted for Bush as many times as some dead people voted for Kennedy in 1960. Kerry lost because he really is a scumbag who couldn't fool most of the people this time.
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