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Offlinedrunkencanadian
Stranger
Registered: 09/21/04
Posts: 21
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
How much light is too much?
    #3335463 - 11/09/04 01:29 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Basically what the topic says. How much light is too much. 12 hour? 18 hour? 6 hour? etc etc... And what if your light is your source of heat (don't want to run a heating pad.... tooooo warm). No pins have shown yet, 5 or 6 days i think. however a light has been on almost all the time, and humidity is very high., should i kill the light for about 12 hours?


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OfflineNoodleSalad
umm...yeah

Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 180
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: How much light is too much? [Re: drunkencanadian]
    #3335470 - 11/09/04 01:32 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

You don't want your heat up during fruiting so i think you shouldn't use a light for a heat source. I heard12 hours is good but i don't think it really matters much.


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InvisibleSam1912
journeyman

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 2,142
Loc: Cali
Re: How much light is too much? [Re: NoodleSalad]
    #3335518 - 11/09/04 01:43 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I noticed more growth during dark cycle. But for pinning, I don't think it makes much difference as long as RH and temps aren't affected adversely.

NoodleSalad, some people live in colder places and they do need to heat things up a bit.

I'd suggest you invest in an aquarium heater for your pod, though, and stick to 12on/12off for pinning and 8on/16off or 12on/12off for fruiting. These light cycles have worked time and time again with excellent yielders. I'm still experimenting, but I'm really leaning towards less light=better yield hypothesis after pins are set. It's upto you though. I doubt that lights on 24 hours would keep them from fruiting.

Sam


--------------------
Protect your civil rights!  End drug prohibition.  And if you don't care about your civil rights, protect mine!

If you want a rating from me, please PM me.  For those really newbies, don't expect an answer back, but you can try me anyways.


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Offlinescatmanrav
Brainy Smurf

Registered: 05/08/04
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Re: How much light is too much? [Re: Sam1912]
    #3335750 - 11/09/04 03:05 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I think noodles point was more that the light shouldnt be used as a heat source because it will cause fluctuations.

[Everything Sam said put here]


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: How much light is too much? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3336078 - 11/09/04 07:47 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I think the light source can be used as a heat source as long as the temp doesn't become to high. In nature there are fluctuations in temp, why would it be neccesary for cultivation to not have them. Awnser: its not. There has been discussion in the past about this and some people obtain better pinning times with temp fluctuations trying to mimic nighttime temperatures.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


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InvisibleSam1912
journeyman

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 2,142
Loc: Cali
Re: How much light is too much? [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3336091 - 11/09/04 07:56 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I think the artificial condition we generate better yields. Think about how much mushrooms you get from how much substrate.  Out of just 1/4 cup of BRF, we expect as much mushrooms as pounds of poo.  If you are happy with that kind of ratio, go ahead and immitate what nature does.  Some things, though...  We can make it better.

Now, that doesn't mean you can't use the light.  Like I said before, I don't push those people who are on strict budget and can't budget $20 for aquarium heater by skipping a trip to movies this weekend.  But I'll most certainly point them in the right direction to the ideal conditions.

Also, immediate area(microclimate) around the dung in nature has internal source of heat from decomposition.  In that humid microclimate, the temperature fluctuation is nowhere near as high as the night and day temp.

Hawksapprentice, I know you are pointing out some good stuff.  But let's keep things a bit less firm than, "impossible" and "answer: it's not".  That kind of affirmation we can use for paper towel discussions. :wink:

Anyway... for tring so hard to help newbies and accepting valid counter arguments...  :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2:

Sam


--------------------
Protect your civil rights!  End drug prohibition.  And if you don't care about your civil rights, protect mine!

If you want a rating from me, please PM me.  For those really newbies, don't expect an answer back, but you can try me anyways.


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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: How much light is too much? [Re: Sam1912]
    #3336118 - 11/09/04 08:15 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Oh i agree with you. You may not get optimal yeilds in doing so. But were here to help people, and spread knowledge. Thats all i was trying for. I just wanted to make sure he knew that doing what he/she was doing was not going to kill thier crop. There are a multitude of different ways of doing this as we both know. I spimly want to make sure that this type of info does not die away. I dont believe i used the word impossible. Almost nothing is truely impossible, just hard. 5 shrooms for you too for being open to discussion.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


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OfflineSilven
I trip,therefore weare.

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 2,071
Loc: El Mexicano
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Re: How much light is too much? [Re: drunkencanadian]
    #3336140 - 11/09/04 08:31 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Not to steal your guy's glory, but what I've begun noticing is that when you are actually inducing pinning, I think more light is better.

I have only ran one test though up to this point.  I used BRF cakes though :frown: and here is what I did and found.

One terrarium ran lights for 12/12 while trying to initiate pinning, the other 24 hours a day.  Fanning was involved every 4 to 6 hours and both fruiting chambers were done at the same time so they recieved the same treatment.

When pinning ensued, the 12/12 had quite a few pins on it, though the 24 hour a day one had many many more.  After they began pinning I knocked both light cycles back down to 6 on/18 off.

The 24 hour one had a slightly higher yield as well.  It had 55 wet grams and the 12 hour had 37 wet grams.

I don't suggest new people try changing up light cycles until you have a feel for it, but these are some preliminary results.  I know you had been playing with lighting Sam and thought you might be interested.

- Silven


--------------------
Born: 10/31/83, which makes me a Scorpio.

1) Scorpios are the most highly sexed of all the signs of the zodiac.
2) Scorpios are prone to excesses: booze, drugs, sex, bad puns, etc.
They usually exploit the weaknesses of others, who fall victim to
their capacity for total lust & sexual abberation.
3) Scorpios possess great intellectual curiosity & creative talent. They
think they are rebels & are arrogant, proud, conceited, and worth every
penny of it.

What do you bring to the table?


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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: How much light is too much? [Re: Silven]
    #3336144 - 11/09/04 08:33 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Noted


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


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InvisibleSam1912
journeyman

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 2,142
Loc: Cali
Re: How much light is too much? [Re: Silven]
    #3336169 - 11/09/04 08:44 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Silven, have you seen my cakes and casings? How many more pins can I fit in there? But I did notice bigger and fatter shrooms with more dark cycles. That's why I'm messing with 3min on and 2hr 57min off for fruiting. As for pinning, I'm sticking with 12/12 for now. Remind me to test longer times when you are done with your experiment. I'll see if I can confirm the results for ya. But you might have to help me find some strains hard to pin... I get mad pins on my stuff.

In case you missed...




Sam

EDIT: Mext cake I harvest, I'll post a new pic. My yields have gone up quite a bit from this 126 grammer.


--------------------
Protect your civil rights!  End drug prohibition.  And if you don't care about your civil rights, protect mine!

If you want a rating from me, please PM me.  For those really newbies, don't expect an answer back, but you can try me anyways.


Edited by Sam1912 (11/09/04 08:48 AM)


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Offlinecall_me_kido
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Registered: 10/26/04
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Re: How much light is too much? [Re: Sam1912]
    #3336214 - 11/09/04 09:12 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Impressive of course. One thing I think we should keep in mind is that different lighting cycles are only one of the 3000 factors each of us provides for our mycological experiments. Maybe 12/12 worked for one guy because the temp in his fruiting chamber was 63 degrees and only settled at a comfortable 72 when the lights were on. Maybe one guy used a 24hr cycle and due to the thickness of his casing layer it was the only way to initiate pinning at such depth. I agree under solid conditions replicated there may be a preferable application of lighting to our substrates, but its impossible to assume one technique will work for all parties considered, when similar enviornments are just that. . .only similar.

I do however think its great that everyone is providing input on the subject. So heres my take on the situation.

In a 74 Gallon container with four 12/6" casings, AFTER cold shocking for 24 hours at 42 degrees F, I will apply 48 hours of constant light then reduce to 10/14 on/off until flush is complete.

Two reasons for this, my pin sets have been more even and less sparatic after 48 hour light application, and after pinning begins, a little less light seems to produce mushrooms of much better height and volume.

Take note that this is using my substrate, casing materials and growing techniques, all of which more then likely differ from most of the people here.

My suggestion is to take advantage of our universal human gift: Trial and error, then learn from our mistakes.

In the end we teach ourselves the best.


Kido


--------------------
"If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?"
- Albert Einstein (1875-1955)

"A is A" -Aristotle


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Offlinescatmanrav
Brainy Smurf

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
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Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: How much light is too much? [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3336245 - 11/09/04 09:32 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

hawksapprentice said:
I think the light source can be used as a heat source as long as the temp doesn't become to high. In nature there are fluctuations in temp, why would it be neccesary for cultivation to not have them. Awnser: its not. There has been discussion in the past about this and some people obtain better pinning times with temp fluctuations trying to mimic nighttime temperatures.




I've personally never found yeilds in nature to be that of what I can grow in my closet. The information about the light doesnt say it wont work, just that it shouldnt be used because its uneven and can fluctuate alot more then in nature..more then 20 degrees depending on the outer temp and kind of light used. Not to mention IME shrooms prefer having a longer dark period once they start growing and that will cause even more fluctuations. Plus this sort of heating will vary depending on how cold it is in your room. If your room temp drops 5 degrees so will your chamber..heated or not its still cooler then what it would be. In a tub in tub the outer temp in the room wouldnt matter and this is IMO the best way to heat up anything, be it incubator or fruiting chamber.

No one said it wouldnt work, just suggested it not be done.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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InvisibleSam1912
journeyman

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 2,142
Loc: Cali
Re: How much light is too much? [Re: call_me_kido]
    #3336264 - 11/09/04 09:46 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

damn dude. You said as much as me. But I'm gonna disagree with you a bit.(not completely). If everyone did it by trial and error, what's the point of having a community? Is everyone expected to find everything out for themselves?

I think the best thing to do is do it scientifically. Work with what works, then deviate from it through forming hypothesis and experiments. What you are doing is fine, but I wouldn't call it an experiment because there is no control group. Why the control group? Because new findings need to verified by other individuals. Since replication of conditions aren't practicable, using relative data from control group provides confirming or contradicting results.

Sure, there are thousands of factors to consider, but telling people "hey, this works great" isn't same as "this is what is accepted as ideal condition and will provide best chances for success." Take the papertowel issue. It may have worked for some people, but it's not a good place to start your grow from. Finding that out by trial and error isn't very good idea either.

Same is true for light cycles. 12/12 works. There are many people trying different combination. The quickest method to improve on 12/12 cycle(if there is a better cycle) would be experiment using control and experiment groups and have few others confirm the test.

You can say 24 hours works great for some because they don't get flushes like mine, but again, they can, and they should. There would be other things you can improve to get good flushes that are proven already. By working with shorter light cycles, I'm trying to get improve on bulk with same number of pins because that would be an improvement from current ideal conditions.

Sorry, I'm rambling. I do think exploring better pinning with light cycle is a great experiment as not too many first grows will have even pinsets. But I think if you are going to experiment and post results, do it with a control group so it can be verified by others.

I remember a thread about using an incubator not too long ago. A lot of people swore they are doing great without it and it's just a waste. You know what's the consensus now, right? Experiments are good, but good experiments are more believable and likely to be replicated.

I'm sorry.. I'm really rambling... I'll stop now.

Sam


--------------------
Protect your civil rights!  End drug prohibition.  And if you don't care about your civil rights, protect mine!

If you want a rating from me, please PM me.  For those really newbies, don't expect an answer back, but you can try me anyways.


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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: How much light is too much? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3336265 - 11/09/04 09:46 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Dude, i never said it gave as good a yeild. Stop looking for a fight.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


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InvisibleSam1912
journeyman

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 2,142
Loc: Cali
Re: How much light is too much? [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3336276 - 11/09/04 09:51 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Hey, let's box!  j/k.  Nopers.. you need to check who I was replying to. :wink:  And oh yeah.. you need to calm down, too, just like you said. :wink:

EDIT:  oops.. i need to check who you are replying, too...Anyways, let's all calm down. :wink:

Sam


--------------------
Protect your civil rights!  End drug prohibition.  And if you don't care about your civil rights, protect mine!

If you want a rating from me, please PM me.  For those really newbies, don't expect an answer back, but you can try me anyways.


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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: How much light is too much? [Re: Sam1912]
    #3336278 - 11/09/04 09:52 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Im sorry that was supposed to be for scat.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey


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InvisibleSam1912
journeyman

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 2,142
Loc: Cali
Re: How much light is too much? [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3336279 - 11/09/04 09:53 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I made the same mistake... sorry.

Sam


--------------------
Protect your civil rights!  End drug prohibition.  And if you don't care about your civil rights, protect mine!

If you want a rating from me, please PM me.  For those really newbies, don't expect an answer back, but you can try me anyways.


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Offlinescatmanrav
Brainy Smurf

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
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Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: How much light is too much? [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3336348 - 11/09/04 10:10 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

hawksapprentice said:
Dude, i never said it gave as good a yeild. Stop looking for a fight.




I'm not looking for a fight really. You said "In nature there are fluctuations in temp, why would it be neccesary for cultivation to not have them. Awnser: its not."

The answer is: because temp fluctuations can cause aborts and a decrease in yeilds. Not "its not". This leads the reader to believe that yeilds do not decrease if you replicate nature instead of a controlled environment. A 10-20 degree fluctuation in temp during pinning has been proven to cause aborts and deminish yeilds. You did not post that..I added the information. The temp fluctuation experiments people were running as far as I saw to benifit the casing were only to make it pin and that entaled cold shocking then fruiting then back to cold shock ect until pins form. Once pins form temp should remain a constant for optimum yeilds.

I'm noticing now though that all the info I said Sam had already discussed..I hadn't seen any posts after the one I quoted..for some reason didnt display anymore before? I might have been looking on another window from earlier or something weird.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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