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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
Anti-Darwinism
    #3329609 - 11/07/04 05:50 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Holy shit, I just heard on TV that in 17 states, education of Darwinism is prohibited from schools. WTF?? Darwinism is basic science to me, how can Americans let this happen? I swear, I really feel America is on a downhill slope, with East and West coast trying to resist an invasion of middle america mentality.

How can you guys cope with such bullshit? How is this happening?
And is there anyone that agrees that Darwinism shouldn't be tought in schools?

America has become a world of its own.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: exclusive58]
    #3329650 - 11/07/04 07:19 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Get a darwin plaque like me!


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
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Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: exclusive58]
    #3329655 - 11/07/04 07:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i was going to make a thread of this but i'll put it here cos its along the same lines:


Why is America so much more religious than the other industrialized countries? Any ideas?


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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OfflineAaronEvil
The GuitarVillain
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Registered: 09/27/04
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Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: exclusive58]
    #3329683 - 11/07/04 07:47 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If you want to base the teachings of Darwinism on science then you know that in order for something in science to be accepted there needs to be tons of proof and it has to be recreated. Darwinism has very little evidence and the evidence it does have can not be tested in a lab. Many scientists have tried and cant reproduce it. I agree with the theory all the way; however, on a scientific level it shouldnt be taught. I know that the people not teaching it are doing it for obvious religious reasons and I think that is wrong, but I dont think it should be taught to the extent it is here in California.


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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Registered: 05/07/04
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Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: AaronEvil]
    #3329805 - 11/07/04 10:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Darwinism has tons of evidence (Galapagos, the increasing complexity of life, etc). It only really fails in that it can't really make predictions, and possibly in the fact that it is a sort of tautology - to say that "the fittest survive" is ppretty much to say that "those best suited to survive will survive". Nevertheless, it is the best theory we have and it hasn't been contradicted by anything.


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InvisibleOJK
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Registered: 06/08/03
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Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: Tao]
    #3330294 - 11/07/04 06:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
i was going to make a thread of this but i'll put it here cos its along the same lines:


Why is America so much more religious than the other industrialized countries? Any ideas?




I must say that I resent the implication that American being more fundamentalist in its religious trends makes it "more religious". I would disagree with the view that a christian fundementalist is "more religious" than a more progressive, liberal christian; they simple take a different viewpoint.


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OfflineAaronEvil
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Registered: 09/27/04
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Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: deafpanda]
    #3330299 - 11/07/04 06:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

deafpanda said:
Darwinism has tons of evidence (Galapagos, the increasing complexity of life, etc). It only really fails in that it can't really make predictions, and possibly in the fact that it is a sort of tautology - to say that "the fittest survive" is ppretty much to say that "those best suited to survive will survive". Nevertheless, it is the best theory we have and it hasn't been contradicted by anything.




I agree that there is evidence, but from a scientific standpoint the evidence that we have isnt good evidence. The scientific method cannot be applied to Darwinism so we cant prove or disprove it which means it shouldnt be taught. On a personal level I agree with it because it makes absolute sense, but from a scientific standpoint its like trying to prove God exists.


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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: AaronEvil]
    #3330339 - 11/07/04 06:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I have to vehemently disagree here.

When I was in highschool, I was taught evolution as a theory. The same way I was taught Einstein as a theory and Freud as a theory and Jesus as a theoretical messiah. I don't see anything wrong with this method. Practically all biological knowledge in the past century has been building off theory, or at least using it. Same for physics. Same for psychology. Do we teach these subjects with gaping holes? Or should we not teach them at all?


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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Anonymous

Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: exclusive58]
    #3330350 - 11/07/04 06:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Holy shit, I just heard on TV that in 17 states, education of Darwinism is prohibited from schools.

not all schools, just the public schools.

How can you guys cope with such bullshit? How is this happening?

i think that people should at least be allowed to choose what is and isn't taught in the schools their taxes pay for.

that said, i think these people are being awfully stupid.


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Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: AaronEvil]
    #3330384 - 11/07/04 06:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

GAHHH!!
:mad2: :enraged: :pottymouth: :rant: :chainsaw:


Whew, glad I got that out of my system....







Ok.


First:

Scientific theories and hypothesis are never proven, only disproven.

Widely accepted theories and laws of science (such as evoluition) are those which have accumalated a great deal of non-contradicting evidence in their favor.



Now, to the topic at hand:

Evolution is a complex theory with many parts; the details of evolutionary theory (its mechanisms, its general course of action) are subject to change, and have changed since Darwin.

However, there is a basic, fundamental hypothesis that underlies all of evolutionary theory:
(A) Tracing heredity backwards through time, ancestors of todays creatures can be found which are arbitrarily different from their decendants.

There is only one possible competing hypothesis:
(B) Ansestors have always looked pretty much like their decendants do today; minor variation is possible, but only within a limited scope.


These are the only possibilities; if A, then not B.
If you disagree, come up with a third.


A is accepted by (just about) the entire scientific community. There is no evidence against it.

B is rejected by (just about) the entire scientific community. There is abundant evidence against it (the entire fossil record, the structure and distribution of existing species, and observed cases of speciation in simple organisms).


Furthermore, large parts of biology are based on the fundamental mutability and adaptability of organisms and their underlying genetic structure. If A is suddenly found to be false, and B accepted, then a large part of biology will have to be discarded.


Evolution is a scientific theory; scientific theories are complex beasts which change over time.

However, it is based on a simple hypothesis (scientific law, if you prefer) that is very well established. The suggestion that the evidence for evolution (which, as I mentioned above is really the absense of contradicting evidence, as it is for all scientific theories) from a scientific standpoint is not good evidence is absolutely, unequivocally NOT TRUE.



Edit: removed severely as a modifier for scope in (B); just to eliminate the possibility of an intermediate hypothesis.


Edited by phi1618 (11/07/04 06:34 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: Gijith]
    #3330479 - 11/07/04 06:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I disagree. Evolution is an observable fact. Evolution by natural selection is a theory. Stephen Jay Gould has been the best explainer of this. You can start with this link http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1151
I would go further with him if you want to understand.

Einstein is not a theory he is a person. General and special relativity are theories that have been very useful, as has Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principal which Einstein denied. Whatever Freud was, he wasn't a scientist so labeling his drivel theory is a mischaracterization at best and to think that anything he did advanced the scientific study of psychology is utterly absurd. To the contrary, his popular nonsense distracted real scientific psychologists from doing anything useful for at least 30 years. Jesus as a theoretical messiah?? Who can possibly make sense of this? My guess is that you were taught that some people think Jesus is what their ridiculous religion has termed a messiah, just like you were taught that Buddhists follow Buddha's teachings. Never include that in a discussion of science or use scientific terms.


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3330528 - 11/07/04 07:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Woah woah,

I read a book by Gould last year about burgess shale. It peaked my interest because of the geology involved. And I've read a few of his essays. In highschool actually. Some of the best non fiction I've ever read. Real genius. I was sorry to hear he had died.

I just wasn't specific enough in my post, but you've done a good job clearing it up. Yes, evolution by natural selection is theory. Yes, obviously, Einstein isn't a theory, his work is. Though most of the math for general and special relativity is over my head, I love the ideas. With Freud, I wasn't trying to label him as science. I was trying to show Aaron that the idea of theory goes beyond science. Same for Jesus. I was taught that christians follow the theory that God created light and.... blah blah blah. I think Aaron smart enough to realize the difference between scientific theory and social or religous theory.

I don't think we're disagreeing on anything here, man. Sorry if my post was vague.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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OfflineAaronEvil
The GuitarVillain
Male

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 1,706
Loc: California
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: Gijith]
    #3330620 - 11/07/04 07:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Im sorry, I think I should be a bit more clear. I was taught Darwinism as a scientific fact not theory. If it is taught as a theory then it should be taught, if it is taught as a scientific fact it should not be taught.


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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
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Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 953
Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: exclusive58]
    #3330673 - 11/07/04 07:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Most things about America shown on French TV are lies. The French are jealous of our success.


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Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: AaronEvil]
    #3330676 - 11/07/04 07:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I think you (Aaron and Gijith) are confused by semantics.

A scientific theory is not the same as a theory in common life.

You can say Freud had theories, but they weren't scientific theories. You can say Jesus was a theoretical historical person (because his existance is less well-established than Caeser, an actual historical person), but this has absolutely nothing to do with a scientific theory.


A scientific theory is a collection of related and connected, each of which is testable - that is, each part of a theory can be disproved.

When part of a theory is found to be false, either a new theoretical framerwork is constructed, or the theory changes to conform to new evidence.

This is different than a scientific hypothesis (or a law, which is just a really well-established hypothesis) in that a hypothesis is a single idea that stands or falls on its own.

Evolution is NOT a theory in the sense that it is not well-established.

That some form of evolution occurred is as well-established as any other scientific fact (a rather generic word that I don't much like in the context of science).

What makes it a theory, and not a law, is that it is a complex of interrelated ideas, which include natural selection, punctuated equilibrium, etc. etc. The parts of the theory - the particular how and whys of evolution - are subject to change.


The fundamental hypothesis underlying the theory - that the ansestors of today's life forms were very different than today's life forms - is highly unlikely to change or be discarded in the near future.



To repeat:

Scientific theories can be established scientific fact; that they are refered to as theories should in no way be taken to mean that they are "theoretical", in the lay sense of the word.

Understand?


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
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Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: phi1618]
    #3330714 - 11/07/04 07:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

No confusion on my part. Read my last post.

I'm a science grad student. I have to deal with scientific theories on a daily basis (plate tectonics, various sediment pattern theories, climate change).

In my post to Aaron, I was merely trying to say that much of what we learn in any subject is theoretical. I should have spelled it out better and explained that I wasn't trying to say a scientific theory is the same as a social or religous theory.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: Gijith]
    #3330737 - 11/07/04 08:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, sorry man.

It pisses me off when people say "evolution is just a theory, not fact". WTF does that even mean?

In any case; evolution is a theory, but so is all of science. If you teach science in the schools, you should teach evolution.


I've read your other posts, Gijith, I should have taken the time to try to understand what you were saying.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
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Registered: 09/05/04
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Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: exclusive58]
    #3330857 - 11/07/04 08:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)



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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: exclusive58]
    #3330895 - 11/07/04 08:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i find it quite amusing.. how the fundies berate darwin while backing social darwinism...


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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
and fell

Registered: 01/27/04
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Re: Anti-Darwinism [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3331279 - 11/07/04 10:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

We need some serious secession.


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If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.


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