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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
can the government make you wear a helmet?
    #3328170 - 11/06/04 04:35 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Here in Ontario Canada, an MPP has pushed for a bill that forces all cyclists, in-line skaters, and skateboarders to wear a helmet on all public roads. If you don't wear a helmet, you may be fined $75. Would you support such a bill in your province / state? Although I think it's generally a good idea to wear a helmet if you are an active cyclist, roller-blader, or skater, or if you are learning to do either of those activities, but I don't believe the government should make you buy and wear a helmet if you choose not to do so. It's MY life, I can decide whether my head is in jeopardy when I take my bike down the street. I am sick of giving up my freedoms in the name of 'public safety'. I have asked my friends and my family if they would buy and wear a helmt if this law passed, all of them said 'no' except one friend who said he would because "it would be the law" type of deal.

Ontario planning helmet law
CTV.ca News Staff

The Ontario legislature is considering a bill that would require bicyclists, rollerbladers and skateboarders to wear helmets when they're travelling on public roads.

NDP MPP Michael Prue fought back tears as he spoke in favour of the bill, recalling his brother's death from a bicycling accident. He was not wearing a helmet.

"There isn't a day goes by that I don't think about him," Prue said. "There isn't a day goes by that I don't see someone on the streets in Toronto -- an adult without a helmet on their head."

Prue spoke in support of a private members bill put forward by Liberal MPP John Milloy, who lost a friend who died of head injuries after an inline skating accident.

Consumer Minister Jim Watson also spoke to personal experience, with a friend who was one of the first Canadians to die after an inline skating accident.

"Regrettably he was not wearing a helmet, and his skates got caught up in some gravel and in a matter of seconds he hit his head on the pavement and he was immediately knocked unconscious," Watson said. "I had the sad task of identifying Carl, and it was a moment that I will never forget."

It's likely that all parties will unite to support Bill 129, which would apply to cyclists, skaters, skateboarders and people using muscle-propelled vehicles such as scooters.

As the law stands now, only bicyclists under the age of 18 are required to wear a helmet. The new law would apply to all ages.
CTV News

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Anonymous

Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: chodamunky]
    #3328221 - 11/06/04 04:50 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I don't believe the government should make you buy and wear a helmet if you choose not to do so. It's MY life, I can decide whether my head is in jeopardy when I take my bike down the street.

this logic only applies when one is not going to be using nationalized healthcare in the event that one injured.

by making healthcare a tax-funded service, you justify government intervention in activities that may be dangerous or unhealthy.

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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: chodamunky]
    #3328278 - 11/06/04 05:05 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

what about seat belts? What about drug laws. Having to wear a helmet falls in line with other government policies that protect us from ourselves. Its not right but thats the way it is.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

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Invisibleusefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!

Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: ]
    #3328302 - 11/06/04 05:13 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

it also kind of makes it look like they give a damn about you

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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/09/99
Posts: 6,487
Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: 1stimer]
    #3328305 - 11/06/04 05:16 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

The government workers have to clean up the mess when you take a dive so they are attempting to save costs(and lives if you wanna give them that).


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

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Invisiblechodamunky
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Registered: 02/28/02
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Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: ]
    #3328325 - 11/06/04 05:21 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

this logic only applies when one is not going to be using nationalized healthcare in the event that one injured.

I'm paying fat taxes for this nationalized healthcare, I damn well better be entitled to it if I crack my head open. The health care system was designed to take care of these things, why should I give up my freedoms to make choices about my own safety because someone in the government lost his brother because he wasn't wearing a helmet; and now he's on a helmet crusade to protect everyone's life whether I choose to accept or not?

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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/09/99
Posts: 6,487
Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: chodamunky]
    #3328329 - 11/06/04 05:23 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Well if you are gonna choose to ride without a helmet and I choose to ride with one then your Premium should be higher than mine.


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #3328357 - 11/06/04 05:35 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sir tripsalot said:
The government workers have to clean up the mess when you take a dive so they are attempting to save costs(and lives if you wanna give them that).




It's not that I don't agree that wearing a helmet is probably a good idea, it's just that they are making it law. Why not promote this idea by educating people through advertising, or doing some helmet safety campaign, etc. I don't like this 'it's the law, now do it' approach. Government authority is penetrating further and deeper into our personal and public lives, and this bill is just another facet of other's people's will to make decisions for you.

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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #3328371 - 11/06/04 05:40 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sir tripsalot said:
Well if you are gonna choose to ride without a helmet and I choose to ride with one then your Premium should be higher than mine.




okay, and if you slip on your snow/ice covered sidewalk or driveway during winter time your 'Premium' should be higher than the people who clean their driveway, or should the government also make it mandatory to shovel and salt your driveway?

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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Posts: 6,487
Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: chodamunky]
    #3328388 - 11/06/04 05:54 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

It has to do with if the occurence results in material numbers. When a similar law was passed here( I think), they cited the figueres of the amount of accidents and deaths occurring from 'helmet activities' and how much could have been prevented from wearing one. The figueres were large enough to warrant a bi-law, unlike slipping on ice accidents. That said, wearing a helmet makes you look like a dork and I'd never wear one.


Basically, ER people complained enough about people with smashed heads bogging them down.


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

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Anonymous

Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: chodamunky]
    #3328472 - 11/06/04 06:39 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

someone in the government lost his brother because he wasn't wearing a helmet; and now he's on a helmet crusade to protect everyone's life whether I choose to accept or not?

sucks.

if it weren't for the fact that if you become sick or injured, other people will be forced to provide you with medical care, the decision of whether or not to wear a seatbelt or a helmet would be an individual decision. you've made it a social one.

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OfflineAaronEvil
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: chodamunky]
    #3328505 - 11/06/04 07:02 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

If people are willing to do these activities with the risk of cracking their skull and they dont want to wear a helmet... let them crack their skull open. Although I can see the force used because of government healthcare. However, in California, or at least San Diego we are obligated to wear a helmet unless we want a ticket. I think the ticket is like 100 dollars or something around there.


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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: chodamunky]
    #3329649 - 11/07/04 05:14 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

What's surprising about this?

When people ask for a nanny state, they get a nanny state.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineTao
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: chodamunky]
    #3329658 - 11/07/04 05:24 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

while i can see arguments against seatbelt and helmet laws, the bottomline is its just a fucking seatbelt/helmet. DEAL WITH IT. and people say liberals are whiny. yeesh.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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OfflineTao
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3329660 - 11/07/04 05:26 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

oh and time for a new sig btw lds :wink:


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: Tao]
    #3329672 - 11/07/04 05:35 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
oh and time for a new sig btw lds :wink:



It appears I was a step ahead of you.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleSorted
Monkee
Registered: 12/26/98
Posts: 301
Loc: UK
Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3329711 - 11/07/04 06:28 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Cycle use drops considerably when helmets are made compulsory, so they might stop a few head injuries but the overall health level of a country falls. Unless the ex-cyclists take up other activities.. preferably not jogging as a pedestrian has more risk of getting a head injury than a cyclist..

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OfflineTao
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: Sorted]
    #3329752 - 11/07/04 07:23 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

can you cite either of those two claims?

and how long would cycle use drop for? until people can find a 15-20$ used helmet? its really not that big a deal, like i said before. and once everyone has to do it, they won't feel as stupid wearing one.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: Tao]
    #3329760 - 11/07/04 07:34 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
while i can see arguments against seatbelt and helmet laws, the bottomline is its just a fucking seatbelt/helmet. DEAL WITH IT. and people say liberals are whiny. yeesh.



While I agree with some of the above posters that Canadians are getting what they deserve in their desire for a total nanny state (I look forward to the mandatory knee/elbow pads and mouth guards...), this law, like seatbelt laws, is yet another violation of individual liberty. How many times must liberty be violated before you DON'T say 'DEAL WITH IT?' What if the Canadian government mandates a government official be present everytime a Canadian wants to drive his/her car, for safety purposes -- would you acquiesce to that? Perhaps the Canadian government can mandate every living residence have completely padded walls and floors; would you be fine with that? I think you see where I'm going here. I take pleasure in seeing them moan about this after they so readily gave up their liberty with regard to healthcare, but how far is it going to go? Ever read Anthem?


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Invisiblechodamunky
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Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3329923 - 11/07/04 09:13 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

heh, I just heard on the news they are trying to pass another Bill, you HAVE to go to school until you are 18 years of age. Again, I say it's probably a good idea to stay in school, but wtf they are making this law?

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OfflinePhred
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: ]
    #3329930 - 11/07/04 09:16 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

by making healthcare a tax-funded service, you justify government intervention in activities that may be dangerous or unhealthy.




As usual, mushmaster nails it.


pinky


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: Phred]
    #3330541 - 11/07/04 05:12 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

i wave my right to tax funded medical care.
i take care of myself.
blow me.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: Tao]
    #3331214 - 11/07/04 08:25 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
oh and time for a new sig btw lds :wink:




speaking of which... I made a shirt of the too many xtians not enough lions a long time ago.. did you come up with it on your own as well? I also had a comic strip on .... oh whatever the hell that do it yourself comic strip creator thing is. I'll see if I can dig them up.

preview edit: found them

Most of them suck due to my lack of talent. But a few of them are kinda funny.


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Happiness is a warm gun...

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OfflineTao
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3332054 - 11/08/04 01:49 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

' What if the Canadian government mandates a government official be present everytime a Canadian wants to drive his/her car, for safety purposes -- would you acquiesce to that? Perhaps the Canadian government can mandate every living residence have completely padded walls and floors; would you be fine with that? I think you see where I'm going here.




ahhh, the good ol' slippery slope arguement :smile: 

my point was that it is NOT much of an inconvenience nor expensive, while what you mentioned would be both.  the ratio of safety to inconvenience is extraordinary. there are always lines that have to be drawn, even libertarianism draws lines where liberty must be sacrificed.  it just pisses me off when people mention seatbelt and helmet laws in the same breath as issues that are far, far more important.  its not a big deal putting on a helmet or wearing a seatbelt, and requiring its use will stop the stigma of both being somehow 'uncool'(:rolleyes:).


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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OfflineTao
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: unbeliever]
    #3332064 - 11/08/04 01:58 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

no i didnt come up with it, i ran across it looking for bumper stickers a couple months ago and was laughing my ass off when i read it.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: Tao]
    #3348773 - 11/11/04 08:34 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
no i didnt come up with it, i ran across it looking for bumper stickers a couple months ago and was laughing my ass off when i read it.




Aha, in my studies guess what i came across? The origin of this saying.

?They think the Christians are at the bottom of every disaster to the state and every misfortune of the people. If the Tiber floods the city or the Nile fails to flood the fields, if there are portents in heaven or earthquakes on earth, if famine comes or plague, they clamour instantly "Throw the Christians to the lion." So many, to one lion?? (Apologeticus, xi)

From the great 3rd century AD christian writer Tertullian.

Thank you, thank you


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: Phred]
    #3348880 - 11/11/04 08:59 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:
by making healthcare a tax-funded service, you justify government intervention in activities that may be dangerous or unhealthy.



As usual, mushmaster nails it.






That is stupid. Your connecting two issues that have little to do with one another. Its like saying because I allow the the government to tax my income they have the right to tell what kind of job I get....

BTW helmets do make you look lame


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."

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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #3349372 - 11/11/04 10:28 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DirtMcgirt said:
Quote:

Quote:
by making healthcare a tax-funded service, you justify government intervention in activities that may be dangerous or unhealthy.



As usual, mushmaster nails it.






That is stupid. Your connecting two issues that have little to do with one another. Its like saying because I allow the the government to tax my income they have the right to tell what kind of job I get....





Wow someone failed analogies in highschool. Not even close.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #3349441 - 11/11/04 10:42 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DirtMcgirt said:
That is stupid. Your connecting two issues that have little to do with one another. Its like saying because I allow the the government to tax my income they have the right to tell what kind of job I get....

BTW helmets do make you look lame



The point is that once it starts to cost the government money they feel it is their right (and I would say it is) to regulate it. The only way to avoid excessive gov't regulation is to keep them out of our day to day lives. And yes the two issues are very much related.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: z@z.com]
    #3350069 - 11/12/04 02:56 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

How?  Because of the negligible costs incurred they are justified?  I'm sure they were closing hospitals down everywhere and raising taxes because the system was bogged down by skateboarders cracking their heads open.:rolleyes:  But you justify them...You claim to be anti government control of our lives but you say they are justified when it affects something state sponsored at all.  If government tries to regulate something you don't let them by holding them accountable.  Thats how you keep them out of your lives, not by assuming they have the right to run the country like a business.  I'm not going into a privatization debate but your clearly just politicking your own views against Canada's health care.  The fact is the government is regulating something they have no business regulating.


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."

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Offlinedemon66
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #14491305 - 05/21/11 08:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I an 100% against all helmet laws.  Especially for bicycles, and I am an avid cyclist.

It is my body!!

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Offlinedemon66
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #14491319 - 05/21/11 08:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

sir tripsalot said:
The government workers have to clean up the mess when you take a dive so they are attempting to save costs(and lives if you wanna give them that).[/quote

Even if helmets do save any amount of lives this logic goes both ways.  Suppose a 50 some year old man dies in an accident that supposidly wouldn't have happened if he had a helmet.  This man btw worked all his life and now never collects social security.  The government actually saves money cuz he died at this age.

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: chodamunky]
    #14491808 - 05/21/11 10:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

In Illinois, you must wear a seatbelt while operating a motor vehicle (the whole "Click it, or Ticket" campaign)
yet, there is no mandatory helmet  law....
and thank God for it.....any sane individual knows fully well how much more dangerous it is to drive a car than a motorcycle.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Offlinetxlibertarian
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: Anonymous]
    #14492323 - 05/22/11 01:24 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


this logic only applies when one is not going to be using nationalized healthcare in the event that one injured.

by making healthcare a tax-funded service, you justify government intervention in activities that may be dangerous or unhealthy.




So why not just make it a law that only non-insured people are required to wear helmets? People that take individual responsibility in order to insure themselves can do as they please - and the people that refuse taking responsibility will be required by law to wear helmets.

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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: txlibertarian]
    #14492819 - 05/22/11 05:59 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

txlibertarian said:
Quote:


this logic only applies when one is not going to be using nationalized healthcare in the event that one injured.

by making healthcare a tax-funded service, you justify government intervention in activities that may be dangerous or unhealthy.




So why not just make it a law that only non-insured people are required to wear helmets? People that take individual responsibility in order to insure themselves can do as they please - and the people that refuse taking responsibility will be required by law to wear helmets.



The cops will have a hard time guessing who has insurance and who doesn't, it might not be practical. As for the helmets laws i have seen someone on television being quite mad about it since he personally drives slow and enjoy his ride without a helmet, when he drives faster he puts an helmet on. i felt that he was right so i guess perhaps a law that combine speed and helmets would be in order?  what do you think about that demon66?

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InvisibleShins
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: communeart]
    #14492840 - 05/22/11 06:12 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

How about we stop being such socialists?

Then if someone falls and hurts themselves the "tax has to pay for medical bills" point is moot.


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: can the government make you wear a helmet? [Re: Shins]
    #14492851 - 05/22/11 06:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

If you want to replace socialism then have it being charity. in the movie sicko, that guy who has to wonder if he keeps in middle finger or his index, well that's fucking crazy and i don't think americans really want a system like that either. i dunno, it feels hard to picture a society like that of america right now for me. healthcare seems like one of the few things that really should be public from my point of view here in canada.

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