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scatmanrav
Brainy Smurf

Registered: 05/08/04
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: discman1]
#3322933 - 11/05/04 01:54 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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There is a difference in growing between keeping one mother and taking clones off of it as needed leaving it vegging for its life cycle until it dies. It will eventually. This is what a culture is like and this can be done because that myc is just sitting there its not running over grain. Think about it. Say your entire jar starts from one spore. You transfer to another jar..this mycelium is now colonized 2 whole jars of substrate..transfer to another jar and the same mycelium has to colonize another jar. Now its three and its getting tired..so on and so on.
If you have one small amount of mycelium the original mycelium in the jar only consumes whats in the jar..this doesnt take much energy from it then its stored..you can inject alot of karo before the myc has consumed the amount of karo that it would consuming 3 full quarts of grain.
This is as best as I can explain it but also remember, we are not dealing with a plant, these are mushrooms, there are similarities but some rules dont apply to plants that do to shrooms and vice verse.
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scatmanrav
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: discman1]
#3322941 - 11/05/04 01:56 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
discman1 said: What if you took and injected the syringe into a 2nd jar of karo water.. would that be considered the 2nd generation? If so.. why? What is the difference?
Actually I dont think it would work that way with karo. Each injection would cause it to move further towards that 3rd generation line when the myc becomes crappy. Moving it to another jar wouldnt really change much of anything or be much different then injecting fresh karo in each time.
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Amygdala
Learner

Registered: 06/30/04
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: scatmanrav]
#3322963 - 11/05/04 02:05 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well after checking in TMC and doing some searching I have returned with this:
Quote:
stamets also mentions cell divisions, which is the best way to understand the mechanics. See, senescence is due to randomn mutations. These mutations occur rarely in an organisms lifetime, and increase only very slightly everytime the cell has to divide. Over millions of cell divisions from sexual reproduction (spores mating), mutations build up and eventually render the organism (strain) useless.
Following this, keep in mind that you always want to use cultures which have the fewest number of cell divsions since the original culture. These "younger" (in #s of cell divisions) cultures will have fewer mutations and will therefore be more vigorous.
Stamets even gives estimated #'s of cell divisions required to colonize a petri if you're interested. Since this is a relatively low number of divisions, and is relatively standard for each species, he measures the age of his cultures according to the P-value. The P value is how many petris have been colonized since the original culture. Knowing the P value gives an indication of how many cell divisions the culture has gone through.
And obviously, it takes far fewer cell divisions to colonize a petri than it does to colonize a jar/bag of grain. That's why you can have many more petri generations (p-value) than you can have grain generations.
That said, most people don't have problems with the G3 jars, so. You could start say 10 jars from a syringe. Use one to make 10 G2's, and use those to make 100 G3's. The other masters are stored in the fridge until you've used the G3 jars. Then you can repeat this process for 9 more cycles, effectively producing 1000 jars from your original syringe. The practical limitiation in this method though is that you can't really store grain jars in the fridge indefinitely, especially a home fridge. But it illustrates that if you manage your "young" cultures well, you will rarely run into senescence problems and you won't have to buy spores very often. If you do, you are growing on a much too large a scale to be talking about it on the internet.
It's from a post by Mycofile back in 2003 and it sums it up much better than i could have. Judging from this and other readings it seems that you would not want to continue on cloning the same sample, but rather resort back to a stored culture or multispore to liven things up a bit. Many have said that over a great length of time with one strain substrate should be changed every so often to give the strain some variety so it does not become too specific. Hope this helps clear some things up...
-------------------- "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." --Albert Einstein
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scatmanrav
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: Amygdala]
#3322980 - 11/05/04 02:10 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah yeah what he said! Thats what I was trying to say..cell divisions and p-value..nice stuff. Now I have words to match the concept..
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SubGen1us

Registered: 11/26/02
Posts: 3,427
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: Amygdala]
#3322990 - 11/05/04 02:13 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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i read alot of teonan deleted posts about it but theres probley no way to find em now.
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discman1
journeyman
Registered: 08/24/04
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: SubGen1us]
#3323022 - 11/05/04 02:26 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Interesting.
Do plants go through these same random mutations, or do they only happen to simple organisms? Or perhaps it effects simple organisms much more, and larger organisms are slower to exhibit symptoms or something perhaps? I'd be curious to know why my friend doesen't have any problems with his unknown-generation cannabis plants. It's easily in the hundreds..
I guess I've gotten too much into the habbit of seeing cells as simply molecular machines. I was beginning to think that (cells) should be able to divide indefinately as long as the conditions are right.
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Tre_Selor
Stranger
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: discman1]
#3323111 - 11/05/04 02:57 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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In the reproductive cycle of mushrooms, the mycelium contain hyphae of two mating types, sometimes called plus and minus strains, with no obvious anatomical differences distinguishing them. If plus and minus strains of hyphae fuse, sexual reproduction begins. Initially the nuclei of the two hyphae remain separate, producing an intermediate stage called the dikaryon, meaning "two nuclei." The dikaryon stage can last from weeks to years, depending upon the species. The two nuclei in the dikaryon eventually fuse to produce a diploid cell-that is, a cell that contains one nucleus with two sets of chromosomes. This cell immediately undergoes meiosis, a type of nuclear cell division that produces offspring with half the genetic material as the parents. Meiosis usually produces four genetically unique haploid spores and the reproductive cycle begins again. This population of genetically different spores has a better chance of surviving environmental changes, such as disease or temperature changes, that may wipe out an entire population of genetically identical spores.
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discman1
journeyman
Registered: 08/24/04
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: Tre_Selor]
#3323128 - 11/05/04 03:02 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ooh, very interesting. So when these "plus and minus strains" fuse, sexual reproduction begins and diploid cells are produced... those are the cells that the fruits are made of?
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Tre_Selor
Stranger
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: discman1]
#3323131 - 11/05/04 03:02 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Guess so :-P
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djred
newbie

Registered: 08/27/04
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: Tre_Selor]
#3324086 - 11/05/04 10:47 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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2 weeks for karo? thats agood amount of time,from post i read on other sites form way back in the day they talk only 4 to 5 dyas for plenty of growth. not sure if you really would have to wait 2 weeks might as well just inject spores into the substrate..
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discman1
journeyman
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: djred]
#3324100 - 11/05/04 10:51 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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The idea is to get a nice culture going, and then store it in the fridge.
The injecting spores comment makes no sense, because you can't do anything with the karo culture other than use it to inoculate jars. The 2 weeks aren't "wasted" compared to the 3-5 days you'd have to wait for each batch of jars inoculated with spores.
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djred
newbie

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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: djred]
#3324105 - 11/05/04 10:52 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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well somehow my post go placed in here which i htought i was reading a karo tek post..hmm confused as i am i don't understand how i don't rmember reading these post when making my reply..i must be out of it..
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ATWAR
Connoisseur

Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 1,640
Loc: #108768 in line...
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: discman1]
#3324542 - 11/05/04 12:46 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
discman1 said: Does anyone know exactly why mycelium degenerates?
Every organism, no matter what, has a certain number of cell divisions it can go through before problems with the genetic code start to develop. This is natures safety net, and is different for all species. Morels for example can only endure a few transfers before they will no longer produce sclerotia. Ps. cubensis on the other hand will endure far more transfers than I have ever put it through...
-------------------- To give is to live...
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discman1
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: ATWAR]
#3326036 - 11/05/04 08:17 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ATWAR said:
Quote:
discman1 said: Does anyone know exactly why mycelium degenerates?
Every organism, no matter what, has a certain number of cell divisions it can go through before problems with the genetic code start to develop. This is natures safety net, and is different for all species. Morels for example can only endure a few transfers before they will no longer produce sclerotia. Ps. cubensis on the other hand will endure far more transfers than I have ever put it through...
Yeah, interesting. So in general, the more complex the organism is, the more the cells can divide without problems, or would that be incorrect? Wouldn't it kinda depend on how well the organisms damage repair mechanisms work?
Does the DNA break down by itself, or is it caused by external sources, ie: UV radiation?
Seems.... imperfect... to me.. Seems like it would be more advantageous to keep clones alive for as long as possible, and of course go ahead and mix it all up for sexual reproduction.
I mean, there are clones in the wild.... plants that naturally root themselves into new plants as droopy branches touch the ground, etc... I wonder if there are any theories on how many generations some of those plants have gone through without sexual reproduction...
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ATWAR
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: discman1]
#3326241 - 11/05/04 10:08 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
discman1 said: Yeah, interesting. So in general, the more complex the organism is, the more the cells can divide without problems, or would that be incorrect? Wouldn't it kinda depend on how well the organisms damage repair mechanisms work?
I am not an expert in this field but it would indeed depend on the species. This is in fact the reason why humans will never live forever...
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Does the DNA break down by itself, or is it caused by external sources, ie: UV radiation?
Both can be reasons, but the primary reason is because of too many cell divisions. Abstract: Telomeres are structures composed of a specific DNA sequence and specialized proteins that cap the ends of chromosomes. Telomeres stabilize the chromosome, and thus ensure that the genome is maintained in a normal, stable state. Normal human cells lose a small amount of telomeric DNA each time they divide. When the telomeres reach a critically short length, the cells irreversibly lose their ability to divide. Thus, the gradual shortening of telomeres that occurs at each cell division ensures that normal cells divide only a finite number of times. It is now clear that this loss of cell division potential, also known as replicative or cellular senescence, is extremely important for preventing the development of cancer. There is, however, a down-side to replicative senescence. Senescent cells also develop an altered pattern of gene expression, which causes the cell to function aberrantly, and senescent cells slowly accumulate with age in human tissues. The accumulation of dysfunctional senescent cells is thought to contribute to a number of disorders that are hallmarks of aging, such as atherosclerosis, susceptibility to infection, macular degeneration, osteoporosis, and others.
This same action is what happens to mycelia that has been transferred too much. Plain and simple, it loses viability and mutations develop.
Quote:
Seems.... imperfect... to me.. Seems like it would be more advantageous to keep clones alive for as long as possible, and of course go ahead and mix it all up for sexual reproduction.
You confused me there. It may not be perfect, but that is nature. It is a good idea to keep clones alive for as long as possible, and it is possible to have a single clone produce mushrooms for the rest of your life. The answer to this problem is always keeping as close to the original genetic material as possible using stock cultures and proper techniques...
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I mean, there are clones in the wild.... plants that naturally root themselves into new plants as droopy branches touch the ground, etc... I wonder if there are any theories on how many generations some of those plants have gone through without sexual reproduction...
There is also a theory, with evidence that, the giant red pines go through a sort of asexual reproduction when a branch breaks off and spears into the ground. Instant clone from the parent red pine (I think it was the red pine)...
-------------------- To give is to live...
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derx
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Registered: 05/29/03
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: discman1]
#3326289 - 11/05/04 10:42 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
discman1 said: Ooh, very interesting. So when these "plus and minus strains" fuse, sexual reproduction begins and diploid cells are produced... those are the cells that the fruits are made of?
no, the plus and minus hyphae fuse to become a zygote. this is the sexual reproduction of mycelium. In the case of club fungi, the zygote per say, in the hyphae does not produce the fruiting body. the the fruiting body is the asexual reproduction. Inside of the gills of the club fungi, nuclear fusion is done producing a zygote, this zygote then undergoes meiosis which produces 4 basidiospores. What you were asking though is true of other fungi such as zygotmycota, commonly known as bread mold. the + and - hyphae produce a zygote in which a spornagium fruits releasing spores.
-------------------- better living through chemistry OVERGROW the government!! it's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom, ok, thats what it is.
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